When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)

Correct. Did you read far enough to understand how the program worked? If not, try again. Of course it didn't since it's not living.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Wonderful. My observations are that it won't pour my cereal in the morning and it doesn't consume enough mosquitoes.It would be interesting if your objections actually had something to do with the topic of the thread. Nobody ever claimed that it came into existence by itself. The point is that the design of the antenna, the particular arrangement of the wires, came about without intelligent input.I've asked you to read how the antenna was created. Either you haven't or you haven't the wit to understand it. Let me try to explain it to you.They began with a population of very simple antennae, then selected those that most closely matched the characteristics they were looking for. Then the program combined and changed those first generation selected antennae in random ways. The program then tested the next generation, selected those that most closely matched the characteristics they were looking for. Then the program combined and changed those second generation antennae in random ways. This process continued for several generations until they got to the end result, which met all the characteristics they were looking for.To summarize, from the moment that they put the characteristics of the first generation antennae into the program until the end result emerged, all that happened was random changes and combinations together with selecting the best ones from each generation.Now, tell me where the intelligence entered into the antennae design.Edited by subbie, : Tyop

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Tree rings fit that definition rather nicely. They tell us how old the tree is, as well as provide details about the weather and other environmental conditions for each year.Does it take intelligence to create a tree ring?Edited by subbie, : TyopEdited by subbie, : Subtitle

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Please, for the love of god, read my entire post! I explained how the design of the antenna came to be, step by step. I didn't put that in there just to flesh out the post. I put it there so you could understand how it happened.I don't simply "want to say" there was no intelligent input, I described the process and asked you to show where the intelligent input entered the picture. You instead simply parroted the same crapola you've been repeating ad nauseum, perhaps from birth for all I know.If you want to say there is intelligent input in the process of creating the arrangement of wires in the antenna, tell us where it entered the process.We will never make any progress if you insist on ignoring the substance of what we say. If you have no desire to make progress and instead are intent on giving us your impression of a broken record by saying the same wrong things again and again regardless of how many times we correct it, I for one would appreciate it if you would let us know that so we don't waste our time.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Do tree rings fit your definition of "information?" If not, why not?Good god, I've had more productive conversations with my 5 year old niece.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

There was absolutely nothing in the computer that told it how to arrange the wires. How did intelligent input affect the arrangement of the antenna wires? Be specific.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Alas, she has. The difference, instead, was that I wasn't trying to intrude into one of those areas, 'though I was sorely tempted to.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

It has occurred to me, on multiple occasions, that creos are the ultimate proof of evolution, because no intelligent being would create anything that stupid.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Great!Then that means that there's no information in DNA.There's no messenger.There's no receptor.It doesn't take an intelligent human being for DNA to be useful.Edited by subbie, : No reason given.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

You obviously don't have the wit to understand the difference between the intelligence designing the program and the program running from that point on without any further input from intelligence.I shall not waste any more of my time on you.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

None of this has anything to do with the definition of information that you provided. Does that mean that you are abandoning that definition? If so, what's the new one? If not, why the hell are you bringing this stuff in?

Yup. Still an assumption without evidentiary basis. Don't have one. Nobody does. Nobody knows anything about it. That means that anything that anyone says about it, including you, is making an assumption without an evidentiary basis. And that's still nothing more than assumption that gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Only to those without any.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Those who assume that "design" or "information" or "complexity" or whatever weasel word they care to choose can only come from an intelligent source will continue to do so, either by ignoring, misconstruing or misunderstanding evidence clearly showing that this is not the case. At the same time, they will staunchly defend their position without ever providing a clear definition of what they mean. In all probability, this is deliberate, with full knowledge that any such clear definition will inevitably result in a rapid dismantling of their arguments.Evolutionary algorithms have produced an astonishing variety of successful designs faster and more efficiently than intelligent designers can. And that's not according to me, that's according to the intelligent designers. In fact, evolutionary algorithms have produced so many impressive results in so many different fields that the only way one can consider these results and still believe that it takes intelligence to create a design is to adopt the paranoiac position that scientists and engineers in every field of science are engaged in a massive conspiracy to try to discredit creationists. Amusingly, creationists are, for the most part, self-discrediting. Not that most scientists and engineers would put much effort into discrediting them, but I'm quite sure that they are aware of the superfluousness of such an effort.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate