When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)

The program is programmed to simulate no human interaction, no computer, and no program.

There was absolutely nothing in the computer that told it how to arrange the wires. How did intelligent input affect the arrangement of the antenna wires? Be specific.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Hi Subbie, I've run into this approach by creationists before - the last being Cedre in the "Does death cause a problem for abiogenists?" thread. He flatly refused to recognise emergent properties as a result of organisation structuring, and went to ridiculous lengths to reference irrelevancies in a vain attempt to stop an inevitable shooting down in flames of his original argument. You can see what I mean by following my posts to him starting here: Message 63Basically when you patiently explain something to a creationist and then ask for corroboration - as a prelude to moving the discussion on, if they spots they are going down a one-way trip to the debate-losers scrap yard - then they are left with only one solution: refute the opponent by any means possible. Do not agree no matter how obvious the tenet under discussion and give no quarter - even if it makes the creationist look an arsehole.The sole intention of these guys is to preserve their 'fixed 'a priori' belief system to the end. And the only way you can preserve fixed beliefs is if you don't allow new ideas to penetrate. They are happy trying to rubbish science and evolution in general - but when they are taxed with specifics and boxed into a corner - as you, Jar Crash and Dr A have been doing all this thread - then the only resource left to them is stubborn dismissal.It's seriously not worth debating guys as entrenched as ICANT or Bolder Dash - they have internalised their religious beliefs to the point that they have sacrificed all logical thought processes - hence why you felt the need to say this: The difference of course, being that your niece hasn’t yet being subjected to the power of religious brain washing — for her sake I hope she never does!
Clear rationality has to be one of the greatest outcomes of biological evolution — even if it was achieved by emergent properties as a result of organisational structuring!
.Edited by Drosophilla, : No reason given.Edited by Drosophilla, : No reason given.Edited by Drosophilla, : No reason given.

Alas, she has. The difference, instead, was that I wasn't trying to intrude into one of those areas, 'though I was sorely tempted to.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

The irony is that they use idiocy to advocate intelligence.

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Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

It has occurred to me, on multiple occasions, that creos are the ultimate proof of evolution, because no intelligent being would create anything that stupid.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Wow - quick reply Subbie - I was still trying to get the link to the abiogenesis thread properly referenced - If you want to see a creationist really playing the 'brick wall' go ahead and check it out.....

Peridotite
Pyroxene
Asbestos
SerpentineHow does the earth know which to make?

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Hi Ringo, The double irony is that if they are right and there really is an intelligent designer - who created monstrosities like the recurrent laryngeal nerve then it is more a case of using intelligence to advocate stupidity......now there is a really frightening thought!Edited by Drosophilla, : No reason given.

Those aren't "English" letters or numbers. Or are you telling me that when I am writing in my own language, I am actually writing English? Not really no. They would be impractical, but there is still aninfinite amount left. Sign language.

But I was not using the English language.Also what makes you think they were English letters and not Spanish or French or German or Italian letters? Actually I can.—Ħţƺ╧ƿɷʁɅɇI didn't make any of those up, and they are not the characters of "a known language".But this is by-the-by. Not over the internet, no. But this is also by-the-by.The fact that we often express language by a string of characters doesn't mean that any string of characters is a language.Just as the fact that we juggle by moving our arms doesn't mean that any arm movements constitute juggling. DNA can't decide anything, 'cos of not having a brain. The way it works is not much like a computer program. That would be a very loose analogy.I'd suggest that instead of trying to understand genetics in terms of bad analogies, you just try to understand genetics.I'd never try to teach a computer science student about computer programming by analogy to genetics, and it doesn't really work the other way round either. No: we can watch systems that control the expression of genes evolving in the laboratory. No intelligent designer is required.If it comes to that, we can watch self-replicating computer programs spontaneously arising from randomness and then evolving --- again, without anyone deisgning them.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Who designed the antenna? Agree with who about what? No-one has claimed that we can use a computer program to simulate evolutionary processes without using a computer program or a computer.The claim is that when we use a computer program to simulate evolution this produces things which have the appearance of design without any person having actually designed them.Do you agree with that? Only that is what is actually being claimed.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

So, everytime we simulate gravity on a computer, that is proof gravity requires intelligence too?

Hi subbie, No.There is no messenger and no receptor.The pattern is not used by the tree to reproduce itself.It takes an intelligent human being for the information to be useful.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Great!Then that means that there's no information in DNA.There's no messenger.There's no receptor.It doesn't take an intelligent human being for DNA to be useful.Edited by subbie, : No reason given.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate