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Author
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Topic: When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 376 of 702 (570903)
07-29-2010 11:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 358 by crashfrog
07-27-2010 5:23 PM
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Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: Sure. I have backups of my wife's phylogenetic data. Are you saying the data was not gathered by an intelligent being? OR Are you saying the person who made the backup is not an intelligent being?
crashfrog writes: They're programmed that way by their creators. Just as the creators of genetic algorithms designed their programs to simulate mindlessness. So the creator is responsible for the programs ability to run without input from you. So then those who wrote the code for any computer program are responsible for the output of that program, regardless of what the program does.
crashfrog writes: Are you saying that they failed in that? I am saying the program that I can't find mentioned anywhere but in this thread if it exists could only do what the programers programed into the program. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 358 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 5:23 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 377 of 702 (570906)
07-29-2010 11:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 361 by crashfrog
07-27-2010 5:27 PM
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Re: Antenna gains
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: The program is programmed to simulate no human interaction, no computer, and no program. Did the program begin to exist without any input of any kind from any source? No. The program was written by intelligent human beings therefore intelligence was involved. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 361 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 5:27 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 378 of 702 (570910)
07-29-2010 11:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 362 by subbie
07-27-2010 5:28 PM
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Re: Antenna gains
Hi subbie,
subbie writes: There was absolutely nothing in the computer that told it how to arrange the wires. How did intelligent input affect the arrangement of the antenna wires? Be specific. I don't see any wires on the antenna. I do see an arrangment of limbs of some substance. The program was responsible for every decision made by the computer as it has no mind and can not think. Deep Blue can not think it can only play chess and it does that by running a program designed to play chess. Poker bots can not think they can only crunch numbers and make decisions determined by what is written in the program. Anything you find in these programs is there because some intelligent being programed it into them. A computer can do nothing that is not programed into it but crash, or mutate which is a major malfunction of some component. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 362 by subbie, posted 07-27-2010 5:28 PM | | subbie has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 400 by subbie, posted 07-29-2010 2:57 PM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 379 of 702 (570914)
07-29-2010 11:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 370 by Huntard
07-28-2010 3:41 AM
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Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
Hi Huntard,
Huntard writes: Those aren't "English" letters or numbers. Or are you telling me that when I am writing in my own language, I am actually writing English? English, Greek and Hebrew are the only languages I know and they don't have the same symbols for letters. But since all language came from a mother language there are a lot of languages that use the same symbols and arrange them in different formats to formulate their words using different sounds.
Huntard writes: Sign language. You got me there and I see it on a regular basis as we have a deaf woman in our Church services regularly and her daughter signs the message for her. But each sign she uses is based on a string of characters that makes words that her mother hears my message by viewing the signs her daughter presents for her to view. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 370 by Huntard, posted 07-28-2010 3:41 AM | | Huntard has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
Hi Dr,
Dr Adeuate writes: But I was not using the English language. Also what makes you think they were English letters and not Spanish or French or German or Italian letters?
I recognized them as English letters as that is my primary language. They were not Greek or Hebrew letters, the other two languages I read and write. If they are used in other languages so be it.
Dr Adequate writes: I didn't make any of those up, and they are not the characters of "a known language". Seems like most of them were known to those who created the HTML code as that is what you used to produce most of them.
Dr Adequate writes: DNA can't decide anything, 'cos of not having a brain. If they can't think and make decisions they must be programed like a computer to do certain functions. Considering the hundreds of thousands of porteins that can be made and is required it would have to be an intelligently designed program like a computer program to accomplish the job it does.
Dr Adequate writes: No: we can watch systems that control the expression of genes evolving in the laboratory. No intelligent designer is required. Unless it is operating on an internal program.
Dr Adequate writes: If it comes to that, we can watch self-replicating computer programs spontaneously arising from randomness and then evolving --- again, without anyone deisgning them. If you were to walk into a computer store and request a complete computer minuse the bios what would that computer be worth? Even if it had the bios but there was no battery to supply power for the bios the computer would be worthless as it would perform no function. The bios is the program that makes it function. If no other programs were ever installed the computer would be worthless. So no, a computer can do nothing if there are not intelligent people who create the parts, then put them together, and then write the programs that we use on them computers would not exist. A computer can do nothing it is not programed to do. Including write a computer program. And yes the design programed into the program is written by an intelligent being. None of the information contained in a computer would exist if there was not an intelligent designer involved. Now if you could present a way information could begin to exist without intelligent input I would be all ears. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Antenna gains
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes: Who designed the antenna? Well it the on button on the computer had never been pressed the design of the antenna would have never existed. If the programers had never written the progam that ran to create the design the antenna would have never existed. So regardless of how the final design was acquired intelligent design was involved in the process.
Dr Adequate writes: The claim is that when we use a computer program to simulate evolution this produces things which have the appearance of design without any person having actually designed them. But anything produced by a computer is intelligently designed by the person who wrote the program. Had that person never wrote the program nothing would be produced by the computer. If you think a computer can produce something by itself without intelligent input turn yours off and then wait and see how long it will be before it produces anything. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 382 of 702 (570928)
07-29-2010 12:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 373 by Huntard
07-28-2010 9:16 AM
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Re: Antenna gains
Hi Huntard,
Huntard writes: So, everytime we simulate gravity on a computer, that is proof gravity requires intelligence too? No. But it does prove that intelligent design is required for you to be able to simulate gravity or anything else on a computer monitor screen. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 373 by Huntard, posted 07-28-2010 9:16 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 383 of 702 (570935)
07-29-2010 12:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 380 by ICANT
07-29-2010 12:13 PM
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Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
Seems like most of them were known to those who created the HTML code as that is what you used to produce most of them. The symbols are known. They are not the symbols of a known language.
If they can't think and make decisions they must be programed like a computer to do certain functions. False dichotomy.
Considering the hundreds of thousands of porteins that can be made and is required it would have to be an intelligently designed program like a computer program to accomplish the job it does. Computer programs can be produced without being intelligently designed. It's called "genetic programming".
Unless it is operating on an internal program. Could you clarify your point?
If you were to walk into a computer store and request a complete computer minuse the bios what would that computer be worth? Even if it had the bios but there was no battery to supply power for the bios the computer would be worthless as it would perform no function. The bios is the program that makes it function. If no other programs were ever installed the computer would be worthless. So no, a computer can do nothing if there are not intelligent people who create the parts, then put them together, and then write the programs that we use on them computers would not exist. This is true but irrelevant.
A computer can do nothing it is not programed to do. This is not strictly true.
And yes the design programed into the program is written by an intelligent being. This is not remotely true.
None of the information contained in a computer would exist if there was not an intelligent designer involved. This is irrelevant. Just to make it clear once again. No-one claims that it is possible to write a computer simulation of evolutionary processes without a computer. What they claim is that a computer simulation of evolutionary processes can produce useful information. Do you disagree?
Now if you could present a way information could begin to exist without intelligent input I would be all ears. If by "without intelligent input" you mean "without completely unintelligent processes unguided by any intelligence whatsoever being simulated on a computer", then the answer would be: in reality, where completely unintelligent processes unguided by any intelligence whatsoever are not simulated on a computer. Evolution is an excellent example of such a process. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 380 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 12:13 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 388 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 2:02 PM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 384 of 702 (570936)
07-29-2010 12:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 382 by ICANT
07-29-2010 12:28 PM
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Re: Antenna gains
ICANT writes: No. But it does prove that intelligent design is required for you to be able to simulate gravity or anything else on a computer monitor screen.
So, let me get this straight, when we simulate gravity, that's not proof gravity requires intelligence, yet when we simulate evolutionary processes, that is proof that evolutionary processes require intelligence. Weird.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 382 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 12:28 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 390 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 2:11 PM | | Huntard has replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 385 of 702 (570939)
07-29-2010 12:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 382 by ICANT
07-29-2010 12:28 PM
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Re: Antenna gains
But it does prove that intelligent design is required for you to be able to simulate gravity or anything else on a computer monitor screen. YES. Intelligence is required to set up any computer simulation of anything. That's one of the key ways in which all computer simulations differ from reality, which does not run on a computer. Therefore this fact is as irrelevant to the implications of the simulation as that the computer runs on electricity, or that it's sitting on a desk, or that it was made in China, or that it has a Microsoft operating system. No conclusions can be drawn from these irrelevant observations about the real process being simulated.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 382 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 12:28 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 394 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 2:20 PM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 386 of 702 (570941)
07-29-2010 1:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 381 by ICANT
07-29-2010 12:23 PM
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Re: Antenna gains
Well it the on button on the computer had never been pressed the design of the antenna would have never existed. If the programers had never written the progam that ran to create the design the antenna would have never existed. So regardless of how the final design was acquired intelligent design was involved in the process. Who designed the antenna?
But anything produced by a computer is intelligently designed by the person who wrote the program. This is, of course completely untrue. If it was true, no-one would ever bother to write computer programs.
Had that person never wrote the program nothing would be produced by the computer. This is true but irrelevant to the false claim in your previous paragraph.
If you think a computer can produce something by itself without intelligent input turn yours off and then wait and see how long it will be before it produces anything. Without intelligent input, yes. Without electricity, no. These are actually two different things.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 381 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 12:23 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 396 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 2:36 PM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 387 of 702 (570946)
07-29-2010 1:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 375 by subbie
07-29-2010 10:44 AM
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Re: Information in tree rings
Hi subbie,
subbie writes: Great! Then that means that there's no information in DNA. Are we talking about the same human DNA? Because I find:
The information in DNA is stored as a code made up of four chemical bases: adenine (A), guanine (G), cytosine (C), and thymine (T). Human DNA consists of about 3 billion bases, and more than 99 percent of those bases are the same in all people. The order, or sequence, of these bases determines the information available for building and maintaining an organism, similar to the way in which letters of the alphabet appear in a certain order to form words and sentences.
Source Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) is the chemical inside the nucleus of all cells that carries the genetic instructions for making living organisms. Source DNA & GENES
DNA is made of four simple building blocks, yet it contains all of the information necessary to build an organism. Segments of DNA called genes contain specific instructions that make each individual unique. Source Deoxyribonucleic acid ( /diˌɒksɨˌraɪbɵ.n(j)uˈkleɪ.ɪk ˈsɪd/ (helpinfo)) (DNA) is a nucleic acid that contains the genetic instructions used in the development and functioning of all known living organisms and some viruses. The main role of DNA molecules is the long-term storage of information.
Source It seems like a lot of folks think DNA contains information that is responsible for how everything in a human is constructed.
subbie writes: There's no messenger. There's no receptor. DNA contains four nucleotides, the total number of possible codons is 64; hence, there is some redundancy in the genetic code, with some amino acids specified by more than one codon.[12] Genes encoded in DNA are first transcribed into pre-messenger RNA (mRNA) by proteins such as RNA polymerase. Most organisms then process the pre-mRNA (also known as a primary transcript) using various forms of post-transcriptional modification to form the mature mRNA, which is then used as a template for protein synthesis by the ribosome.
Source When DNA reproduces, the 2 strands unzip from each other and enzymes add new bases to each, thus forming two new strands. This process is illustrated in the Access Excellence DNA Replicating Itself page (just hit your browser's Back button to return here). Within this coil of DNA lies all the information needed to produce everything in the human body. A strand of DNA may be millions, or billions, of base-pairs long. Different segments of the DNA molecule code for different characteristics in the body. Transcription: In the first step of protein synthesis, the 2 DNA strands in a gene that codes for a protein unzip from each other. Similar to the way DNA replicates itself, a single strand of messenger RNA (mRNA) is then made by pairing up mRNA bases with the exposed DNA nucleotide bases. Translation: After the mRNA is manufactured, it leaves the cell nucleus and travels to a cellular organelle called the ribosome (we will learn about the cell, nucleus and ribosome in the next lesson). In the ribosome, the mRNA code is translated into a transfer RNA (tRNA) code which, in turn, is transfered into a protein sequence. There are two principal stages in protein synthesis. The first stage is transcription, in which the information encoded in DNA is copied onto a length of messenger RNA (mRNA), which in eukaryotes moves from the cell nucleus to structures in the cytoplasm called ribosomes. The second stage is translation, in which amino acids are linked together at the ribosomes in the order specified by the mRNA sequence.
Source We have information. Converted into a message. Which is delivered by the messenger RNA. This message is received by the ribsomes which produce the protein Information = MESSAGE TO BE DELIVERED Messenger RNA. = MESSENGER Ribsome = RECEPTOR WHO USES INFORMATION to create protein. That fits my description of information. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 375 by subbie, posted 07-29-2010 10:44 AM | | subbie has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 407 by subbie, posted 07-29-2010 3:34 PM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes: Computer programs can be produced without being intelligently designed. It's called "genetic programming". Can those programs be created without a program running that was written by an intelligent being?
Dr Adequate writes: Could you clarify your point? A computer has a bios in it that causes many things to happen. It determines how to find the hard drive, processor, memory and all the things required for the computer to run. These are things we never think of when we press the on button. But without them being there nothing would happen. Just take the bios battery out and you will see what I mean. So what I was saying was that if the information and processes were like the bios in the computer everything could be done without any further interaction.
Dr Adequate writes: This is true but irrelevant. Lets see it is absolutely true that a computer can not operate without intelligent design of machine and programs. But it is irrelevant to that same computer producing a program. That don't compute.
Dr Adequate writes: This is not strictly true. What can a computer do that it is not running a program to do?
Dr Adequate writes: This is irrelevant. Irrelevant to what. It is very relevant to the information existing in the computer else it would not be there.
Dr Adequate writes: If by "without intelligent input" you mean "without completely unintelligent processes unguided by any intelligence whatsoever being simulated on a computer", then the answer would be: in reality, where completely unintelligent processes unguided by any intelligence whatsoever are not simulated on a computer. For any DNA information to begin to exist: It would first require a place to exist. That life form would have to first began to exist. But if all the DNA information for that life form to exist was encoded in its DNA, then how could that entity begin to exist? Where did the DNA information come from to build the first life form? So can you present a way for DNA information to begin to exist?
Dr Adequate writes: Evolution is an excellent example of such a process. I know you believe that. So present the evidence of how DNA information can begin to exist? I am all ears. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 389 of 702 (570956)
07-29-2010 2:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 388 by ICANT
07-29-2010 2:02 PM
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Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
ICANT writes: So present the evidence of how DNA information can begin to exist? You have been given this many, many times. Information can begin to exist through errors and substitution filtered by natural selection.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 388 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 2:02 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 398 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 2:44 PM | | jar has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 390 of 702 (570958)
07-29-2010 2:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 384 by Huntard
07-29-2010 12:50 PM
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Re: Antenna gains
Hi Huntard,
Huntard writes: So, let me get this straight, when we simulate gravity, that's not proof gravity requires intelligence, yet when we simulate evolutionary processes, that is proof that evolutionary processes require intelligence. Then please get it straight. My post you quoted said:
quote:
But it does prove that intelligent design is required for you to be able to simulate gravity or anything else on a computer monitor screen.
That "anything else" includes your evolutionary processes. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 384 by Huntard, posted 07-29-2010 12:50 PM | | Huntard has replied |
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