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Author
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Topic: Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 481 of 607 (582903)
09-23-2010 8:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 480 by ICANT
09-23-2010 7:56 PM
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Re: Literal interpretation of the bible
ICANT writes: So you want to say there is an old story and a later story. Then you want to put the man formed from the dust of the ground in the old story into the younger story of the man that was created in the image/likeness of God and say they are the same man. No, I have never said that. There is no connection between the story found in Genesis 1 and that older story in Genesis 2&3.
ICANT writes: This refers to the man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27. This man is said to live to be 930 years old. No, it refers to the character Adam, found in the Genesis 2&3 story.
ICANT writes: Well if she did not die I would like to sit down with her and get her to explain to me just what took place from then until now. That would be a great story. The problem is the serpent lied she died. He did tell the truth when he said she would become as God knowing good and evil. She did not die in the very day she ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and according to the God in the story she did become like God to know good and evil. Have you ever read the Bible?
ICANT writes: When you accept what the text says there is no problem and it can be accepted as a fact according to what is written in the manuscripts as well as the scientific evidence that testifies to the events that happened. Except once again you are simply wrong. The scientific evidence totally refutes ALL of the different creation accounts.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 480 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 7:56 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 484 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 8:47 PM | | jar has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 482 of 607 (582904)
09-23-2010 8:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 479 by ICANT
09-23-2010 7:32 PM
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Re: Hand waving
ICANT writes: The Heaven and Eareth existed at Genesis 1:2 which God called the evening in Genesis 1:5. That means the light portion of the first day had expired as darkness had fallen on the Earth. That is the reason the Day in Genesis 2:4 is the light period that ended at Genesis 1:2.
That's a non sequitur. You've given no reason why the word yom in Genesis 2:4 has anything to do with a "light period". The word yom can refer to the light part of a day or a whole 24-hour day or an indeterminate period of time. You've given no reason to prefer one over the others.
"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 479 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 7:32 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 483 by jar, posted 09-23-2010 8:25 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 485 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 8:51 PM | | ringo has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 483 of 607 (582906)
09-23-2010 8:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 482 by ringo
09-23-2010 8:15 PM
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Re: Hand waving
Again, he just pulls crap out of context.
quote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morningthe first day.
If you actually read what is there the first day is defined as the period including evening and morning, a 24 hour day. The same description is used throughout this particular story. ICANT's error is in trying to make other older stories fit into the much newer tale found in Genesis 1.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 482 by ringo, posted 09-23-2010 8:15 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 486 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 9:10 PM | | jar has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 484 of 607 (582908)
09-23-2010 8:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 481 by jar
09-23-2010 8:10 PM
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Re: Literal interpretation of the bible
Hi jar,
jar writes: No, I have never said that. There is no connection between the story found in Genesis 1 and that older story in Genesis 2&3. So where do you get the age of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7? According to the text he lived in the day the LORD God creatred the Heaven and the Earth. He did not exist at Genesis 1:2, when darkness had come. Therefore he died the same day he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
jar writes: No, it refers to the character Adam, found in the Genesis 2&3 story. Then you can't read or you can't understand what you read.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Where does these verses mention the man formed from the dust of the ground?
jar writes: She did not die in the very day she ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and according to the God in the story she did become like God to know good and evil. Was she alive at the evening of Genesis 1:2 when the earth was covered with water?
jar writes: Except once again you are simply wrong. The scientific evidence totally refutes ALL of the different creation accounts. I have heard that and been told that but nobody has ever presented any evidence for the origin of the universe. The Bible is the only source of that informaion. Actual observation concure with the Bible. Science says the universe began to exist Genesis 1:1. says the universe began to exist. Science says the universe is very old 13.7 billion years old. Genesis 1:1 says the universe is very old as it was created in the beginning which there is no date for. So science and Genesis 1:1 is in agreement, concerning the creation of the universe. They are in agreement in a lot of other places but I am trying to limit the discussiion to the first two chapters of Genesis in this thread. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 481 by jar, posted 09-23-2010 8:10 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 487 by jar, posted 09-23-2010 9:17 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 485 of 607 (582910)
09-23-2010 8:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 482 by ringo
09-23-2010 8:15 PM
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Re: Hand waving
Hi ringom,
ringo writes: That's a non sequitur. You've given no reason why the word yom in Genesis 2:4 has anything to do with a "light period". The word yom can refer to the light part of a day or a whole 24-hour day or an indeterminate period of time. You've given no reason to prefer one over the others. Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. What part of God calling the light yom do you not understand? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 482 by ringo, posted 09-23-2010 8:15 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 489 by ringo, posted 09-23-2010 9:37 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 486 of 607 (582917)
09-23-2010 9:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 483 by jar
09-23-2010 8:25 PM
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Re: Hand waving
Hi jar,
jar writes: Again, he just pulls crap out of context. Then answer the questions.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Does these words say God created the heaven and the earth?
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, Does these words say: "these are the generations (history) of the heavens and the earth."? Does these words say: "when they were created in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."?
jar writes: ICANT's error is in trying to make other older stories fit into the much newer tale found in Genesis 1. No ICANT'S problem and error is trying to explain what the Bible says to people that do not believe it is the Word of God and to those who do not believe God exists. He is just stupid enough to believe that the Holy Spirit might open their eyes that they might see. But he knows for a fact that they will not have an excuse when they stand before the righteous judge at their judgment. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 483 by jar, posted 09-23-2010 8:25 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 487 of 607 (582919)
09-23-2010 9:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 484 by ICANT
09-23-2010 8:47 PM
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Re: Literal interpretation of the bible
ICANT writes: I have heard that and been told that but nobody has ever presented any evidence for the origin of the universe. The Bible is the only source of that informaion. Actual observation concure with the Bible. Science says the universe began to exist Genesis 1:1. says the universe began to exist. Science says the universe is very old 13.7 billion years old. Genesis 1:1 says the universe is very old as it was created in the beginning which there is no date for. So science and Genesis 1:1 is in agreement, concerning the creation of the universe. They are in agreement in a lot of other places but I am trying to limit the discussiion to the first two chapters of Genesis in this thread. No, science and Genesis 1 are not in agreement. Genesis 1 is somewhat longer than Genesis 1:1. And the Bible is NOT the only source for the universe beginning; long before the Bible there was the creation tale of Atra-Hasis and the Egyptian myths and the Hindu Vedas and many more. Actual observations do not concur with the Bible, in fact they refute the Bible.
ICANT writes: So where do you get the age of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7? According to the text he lived in the day the LORD God creatred the Heaven and the Earth. He did not exist at Genesis 1:2, when darkness had come. Therefore he died the same day he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He does not exist during Genesis 1:1 either. Because there is no connection between the fable in Genesis 1 and the other earlier fables.
ICANT writes: Was she alive at the evening of Genesis 1:2 when the earth was covered with water? Two different stories. That's like asking if the Connecticut Yankee lived during Huck Finn. The Bible has many many authors, many stories that are combinations of different stories, some just stuck together even though they tell different stories.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 484 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 8:47 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 492 by ICANT, posted 09-24-2010 11:11 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 488 of 607 (582921)
09-23-2010 9:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 486 by ICANT
09-23-2010 9:10 PM
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Re: Hand waving
ICANT writes: No ICANT'S problem and error is trying to explain what the Bible says to people that do not believe it is the Word of God and to those who do not believe God exists. He is just stupid enough to believe that the Holy Spirit might open their eyes that they might see. But he knows for a fact that they will not have an excuse when they stand before the righteous judge at their judgment. So far you have not been very convincing. And then you pull the Holy Spirit crap and act like you are warning folk. What makes you even think they need an excuse or will have anything to be excused? Maybe it is the other people that actually worship the Righteous Judge and you that Blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Worry not, I will pray for your enlightenment.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 486 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 9:10 PM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 489 of 607 (582922)
09-23-2010 9:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 485 by ICANT
09-23-2010 8:51 PM
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Re: Hand waving
ICANT writes: quote:
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
What part of God calling the light yom do you not understand?
What part of God calling the evening and the morning yom do you not understand? What basis do you have for choosing one meaning of yom over the other in the same verse? What basis do you have for linking either one of those meanings with the yom in Genesis 2:4? Edited by ringo, : Spellint.
"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 485 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 8:51 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 494 by ICANT, posted 09-24-2010 11:51 AM | | ringo has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 490 of 607 (582942)
09-23-2010 11:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 486 by ICANT
09-23-2010 9:10 PM
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Re: Hand cock waving
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Does these words say God created the heaven and the earth?
Yes, they does.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, Does these words say: "these are the generations (history) of the heavens and the earth."? Does these words say: "when they were created in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."?
Yes, they does. So what?
No ICANT'S problem and error is trying to explain what the Bible says to people that do not believe it is the Word of God and to those who do not believe God exists. On top of that, you have the problem of providing a convincing reason that your twisting of the words has any worth to people who believe the Bible is the word of God and do believe that God exists.
He is just stupid enough to believe that the Holy Spirit might open their eyes that they might see. But he knows for a fact that they will not have an excuse when they stand before the righteous judge at their judgment. Really? . . .
REALLY? . How pompous!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 486 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 9:10 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 495 by ICANT, posted 09-24-2010 11:58 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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greyseal
Member (Idle past 3892 days) Posts: 464 Joined: 08-11-2009
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Message 491 of 607 (582994)
09-24-2010 6:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 476 by ICANT
09-23-2010 7:12 PM
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Re: Literal interpretation of the bible
Hi ICANT,
ICANT writes: greyseal writes: As I have said, the language that the bible was written in wasn't English. I have been told (and I lean towards accepting this) that the word for "day" is "yom" and "yom" very validly translates as "age" at least as much as it does day (infact day itself can mean age in English too) - i.e. So are you calling God a liar concerning the definition of a day? No, I'm calling you foolish for not understanding context.
sometimes a day is a day-day, sometimes it is a length of time. Look, I'll prove it to you with one sentence:
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens isn't "generations" far longer than a day-day? In the verse where god is talking about "the evening and the morning" you can literally read it as being similar to our 24 hour day, but just because it means day that time does not mean it means day everywhere. As my bible-thumping friends here always say, context, context, context. both of your examples specify yom as being "an amount of time" (I didn't specify year, please don't say I did). I fail to see where I must be wrong and you must be right.
You can argue anything you desire to argue. You can believe anything you want to believe. Your belief or argument just does not make it a true fact. yes, and I remind you that you are under the same burden. On the other hand, my argument has merit as proved by your own sources and I think makes more sense for a number of reasons (already stated).
So where do you get it that I am 12 hours short? I was talking about how you define day as sun-up to sun-down, whereas the jews define it as sun-down to sun-up - twelve hours out of phase, not "missing".
ICANT writes: A better explanation for who, You or God? Just because you do not agree with what is recorded in the Bible does not make it false or fiction. It just means you do not have the foggiest idea what the message recorded there is. like you did in Message 459 My statement you are quoting here was a response to jar's comments made in Message 458. Indeed, and my statement was to the effect that if Jar doesn't get to say the bible is false, then you don't get to claim it is true. Fair is fair. Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 476 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 7:12 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 497 by ICANT, posted 09-24-2010 1:45 PM | | greyseal has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 492 of 607 (583032)
09-24-2010 11:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 487 by jar
09-23-2010 9:17 PM
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Re: Literal interpretation of the bible
Hi jar,
jar writes: The Bible has many many authors, many stories that are combinations of different stories, some just stuck together even though they tell different stories. If you believe that, then why can't my verison be the correct one? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 487 by jar, posted 09-23-2010 9:17 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 493 by jar, posted 09-24-2010 11:24 AM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 493 of 607 (583034)
09-24-2010 11:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 492 by ICANT
09-24-2010 11:11 AM
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Re: Literal interpretation of the bible
Because your version makes little sense and is absolutely refuted by the evidence of the world we live in.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 492 by ICANT, posted 09-24-2010 11:11 AM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 494 of 607 (583037)
09-24-2010 11:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 489 by ringo
09-23-2010 9:37 PM
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Re: Hand waving
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: What part of God calling the evening and the morning yom do you not understand? I have absolutely no problem with God calling the evening and the morning day. Because I understand that you can not have an evening without a morning. So God called a light period day. God called a light period that ended with evening and The dark period that ended with morning as the first day. So I have no problem with anyone calling a light period day. I have no problem with anyone calling a light period and a dark period day. I have never heard anyone call a dark period day.
ringo writes: What basis do you have for choosing one meaning of yom over the other in the same verse? I do not choose one over the other. Did God call a light period day? I say yes. Did God call the end of a light period and the end of a dark period a day? I say yes.
ringo writes: What basis do you have for linking either one of those meanings with the yom in Genesis 2:4? Genesis 1:1 says an event took place. The Heaven and Earth began to exist. Genesis 2:4 says this is the history of that day. I have no choice as to why Genesis 2:4 says the events that took place in Genesis 1:1 in a day, as that is what is recorded in the text. Since the MBR says there was a time there was a lot of light in the universe I choose the events taking place in a light period rather than a period of darkness. If you disagree please explain your disagreement. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 489 by ringo, posted 09-23-2010 9:37 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 496 by ringo, posted 09-24-2010 12:21 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Hand cock waving
Hi CS,
Catholic Scientist writes: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Does these words say God created the heaven and the earth?
Yes, they does.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, Does these words say: "these are the generations (history) of the heavens and the earth."? Does these words say: "when they were created in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."?
Yes, they does. So what? Well if they does then one claims to be the history of the other. That's what. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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