Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2

Of course, that is not what is recorded in the text. The word yom as used in Genesis 2:4 defines a time period, not specifically "a day". It could be in the sense of "grandpa's day" which lasted for decades.I'm asking you how and why you concluded that the "day" in Genesis 2:4 has anything to do with a "light period" or a "light and dark period". Why did you choose (yes you did) that particular definition of yom over "period of time"? Are you suggesting that plants, animals and man were creating during the Big Bang?

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

Hi greyseal, What context don't I understand? What is a day-day?Is that a light period?ORIs it a light period and a dark period? Now who is not examining the context that I am not understanding.English word generations is the linage of humans, which is their history.Genesis 2:4 is talking about entities that do not produce offspring so the context of the Hebrew require that תןלדןת be translated history.So we have the history of the Heaven and the Earth in the day they were created.יןם is not plural so it is one single day that is under consideration. That means it can be a light period which God called day. Or it can be the combination of a light period and a dark period as declared the first day by God.Since it is not plural it can not cover the events that is recorded in Genesis 1:2-2:3 as those events took place over several days.Now why are you trying to convince me that the day period mentioned in Genesis 2:4 is an extended period of time?That is what I have been saying from my OP until now.According to God's definition of day I have to conclude that the history in Genesis 2:5-4:24 took place in a light period because there was not days only day.On the premise of a day either being a light period or a light period including a dark being a day, I reach the conclusion that:Genesis 1:1 took place in a light period (MBR says it was bright in the beginning) that ended with the darkness we find that began to exist after those events took place and we find it at Genesis 1:2.That darkness ended with the beginning of the following light period with the morning of day two.The Heaven and the Earth existed at Genesis 1:2 which was night.Since it existed at Genesis 1:2 when did it begin to exist?Did it begin to exist in the darkness we find at Genesis 1:2?If so then the first day that was declared in Genesis 1:5 was only a dark period. I don't literally read it as being similar to our 24 hour day.The evening and the morning that was declared the second day was a 24 hour period as was day three, four, five, and six. Do you believe the Bible is it's own best interperter?If so then why not accept God's definition of day.According to God day is a light period,ORA light period that ends with evening, and the darkness of that evening ending with the following light period.We have divided the day up into 24 hours or 1440 minutes or 86400 seconds. It has not always been that way.Day used to be from the rising of the sun to the setting of the sun.Night was from the setting of the sun until the rising of the sun.Now we have to use appearance and disappearance of the sun. The period of light we call day can vary several hours depending on the time of year and the latatitude you reside at. The darkness will vary according to the light period.But from the time God declared the light period that had ended in Genesis 1:2 and the light period of the morning of day two as the first day each following day has been 24 hours. I do not define day. I accept God's definition of day which is a light period. I don't care what the duration of that light period is.I accept God's definition of night, a dark period I don't care what the duration of that dark period is.I accept God's definition of a light period ending with evening and the dark period ending with morning as a day. I don't care what the duration of the combination of the light period and dark period is. Please read the OP.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi ringo, Well if it was Grandpa's day you would be refering to one specific day of Grandps's life.Now if you said Grandpa's days you would be refering to his life from his birth until his death.Don't confuse man's usage or abuses of the English language as evidence for the definition of day.Or it could have been a light period that lasted for billions of years as I have claimed in this thread. Because God defined a light period as day in Genesis 1:5.He also defined a light period and a dark period as day. I don't remember mentioning the Big Bang in this thread until now.I did say the Heaven and Earth had a beginning. I see no way that much matter and energy could be brought into existence or if it existed be arranged into the universe without a tremendous amount of light being dispersed.I did say during this light period called day man was formed from the dust of the ground. The decendants of this man built a city and at least 7 generations of people existed in this light period called day in Genesis 2:4.And yes there was plants and animals that was formed and existed in this light period.In fact there was enough plants and animals that existed in that day to provide us with the fossil fuels, oil, coal and natural gas we have today.This day, light period, had a duration from the beginning until the darkness we find in Genesis 1:2.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

No, you would not. When grandpa said "in my day", he meant in his heyday, in the days and years when he was at his prime. It's hard to believe that you could have lived for long in an English-speaking country without understanding that figure of speech. The only one here who's confused about usage, both English and Hebrew, is you. Here's an example of yom referring to more than one light/dark period:

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Gen 4:3 And in process of time (yom) it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

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and another:

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Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age (yom); and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

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and another:

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Gen 24:1 And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age (yom): and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things.

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It's pretty clear that the word yom was often used to refer to more than one light/dark "day".I ask again: Why do you insist on using the specific definition of yom over the more general definition? That's what I asked you.During that "light period", there were no atoms, much less dust or man.

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

Hi ringo, So because people abuse the English language I am without understanding of a figure of speach.Well no.I know what the figure of speach is because I am aware that some people use that figure of speach to express their thoughts concerning a period in their life or just a period of time in the past.But that figure of speach has nothing to do with the definition of יןם that God gave in Genesis 1:5.The definition that God gave would be the one that would be used of day that is refering to a day that God did something. Since there was no night how else would you express the duration?You could not say days, weeks, months, or years, as there was nothing to count time as we know it from. There was only existence. Since in the OP I stated the LXX would also be used the Greek is translated, advanced in days.Because the translators used age instead of days which in this case the Hebrew is in the plural form does not change the meaning of יןם
as described by God in Genesis 1:5. And when you use the word to refer to more than one 24 hour period you use the plural form of days. You can ask as many times as you desire the answer is not going to change so the question will be ignored in the future.I choose to use the definition God gave in Genesis 1:5. God declared a light period Day.God declared a dark period Night.God declared a light period and a dark period as the first day.I am not examining things written in any book other than the Bible.Therefore I will use the definition given in the Bible by God.This thread was not set up to discuss the meaning of day.In the OP Message 1 I said: In Message 36 I presented the case for a story in Genesis chapter 1 through 2:3.In Message 52 I presented the case for a story in Genesis 2:4- 4:24.If you disagree with there being a story in Chapter one and a different story in Chapter two and care to refute what I presented please do so as that is what this thread is supposed to be about.I just get carried away and have a hard time focusing on the subject in trying to answer 29 different people and their rabbits they want me to chase. Are you suggesting the beginning of the expansion of the universe that I am told existed at T=10^-43 was a flash of light that became instant darkness?The light period of the day the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth lasted for an unspecified duration in which everything in Genesis 2:5-4:24 took place before the darkness we find in Genesis 1:2.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

There isn't one definition of yom in Genesis 1:5. There are two. There is also a more indefinite period of time defined as yom in the examples I gave. I keep asking you why you choose one definition over the others but you don't seem to have a coherent answer. Non sequitur. There was night.(Your argument is circular if you use your conclusion to support your definition of yom.) It certainly does. The word yom in Genesis 18:11 refers to many days, may 'light periods". If you can show us that the plural is used in my examples but not in Genesis 2:4, then do that. If you can do it, you should have done it right off the bat to answer my question: Why did you choose one definition of yom over the others? The answer would have been: Because it's singular in the Hebrew, not plural. I can see why you want to ignore the question because your whole argument depends on the answer and you don't appear to have one. Ignoring refutations is what we call hand-waving. Nobody else is either. I'm only talking about your misuse of the Bible. There isn't only one definition for yom, there are several. But you can't make your point stick without understanding the meaning of day. As far as I know, the vast majority of that radiation was in the invisible part of the spectrum so calling it "light" is misleading. Associating it with the creation story in Genesis is downright ludicrous.I am definitely suggesting that there was no man around at the time.

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

well, this context: Either you truly do not understand or you are trying to be obtuse deliberately. The crux isn't whether a day is "during the day when it is light" or whether a day is "the whole 24-hour-ish period from sun-up to sun-up" (or sun-down to sun-down as the bible defines it*, which is how the jews and muslims use the phrase), it is whether "day" refers to this distinct time-period, or whether (as is perfectly valid) it refers to something more like we would call an age.I do not need to quibble over the former, because it is the latter definition which is important, please provide proof I am wrong, and no - the fact that the same word is used as a distinct time-period earlier on in the book (in the same chapter, even) is not relevant. I did examine the context, from it I conclude that the word "day" in the above bible-quote actually refers to the age of creation.look, here's that same definition of the word "day" from the first link I found, the Mirriam-Webster:

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1 a : the time of light between one night and the next b : daylight 1 c : daytime
2
: the period of rotation of a planet (as earth) or a moon on its axis
3
: the mean solar day of 24 hours beginning at mean midnight
4
: a specified day or date
5
: a specified time or period : age (in grandfather's day) often used in plural (the old days) (the days of sailing ships)

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just because definitions 1-4 exist and are listed first, does not mean that definition 5 cannot be used, and does not mean that it's usage as such will be signified in any way.To understand English (and other contextual languages) you have to read things in context. Definition 5 fits better in context by the simple use of Occam's Razor. I think we have the history of the Heavens and the Earth in the age they were created, and I think it makes more sense. You can't have all that much history/generations in a single day, but you CAN in an age! No, no I don't, and I think it's naive to think it can be, especially when dealing with words that have multiple meanings. This isn't, remember, god's definition of a day. This is a word written down by somebody a long time ago to describe some story or narrative - written by a human, not god. You may claim it to be inspired, but I don't see where inspiration negates any specific definition of a word. If a day can be an age, then a day can be an age. It can be used interchangeably, and not even god (unless you have a dictated piece of scripture saying so) can change that.Besides, and it comes back to this, if you claim that the humanity created in Genesis 1 was the same stock as the specific human created in Genesis 2, then we're back to the problem of having the order of things that occured in Genesis 1 wrong compared to 2, and Genesis 1 of course describes things occuring in a week whereas you demand that the "day" in Genesis 2 is "one day" because you cannot accept it as "the age of creation".If you really want to talk about plural, well, the dictionary definition itself says "In Grandpa's day" to mean during his life - or are you more learned than the writers of the dictionary you lean on?* yes, that's how the bible defines it, "the EVENING and the MORNING of the first day"Edited by greyseal, : BB mullered the < and >

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If you really want to talk about plural, well, the dictionary definition itself says "In Grandpa's day" to mean during his life - or are you more learned than the writers of the dictionary you lean on?

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* yes, that's how the bible defines it, "the EVENING and the MORNING of the first day"

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Same song, different opponents. Over 500 posts and ICANT still can't understand the simple usage of day.We've been over the same argument with him in this thread. See Message 193, Message 241, and Message 281. He and Peg have their own purpose and need the meaning that serves their purpose regardless of what basic English and grammar and regardless of what the more learned or scholars tell us.Maybe you and Ringo can find something different that we haven't tried yet to help him "see the light". Edited by purpledawn, : Edits

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The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary

Hi greyseal, Nope just trying to be precise. I am a literalist. Did God call a period of light day in Genesis 1:5? Yes/No Which is what God called the first day in Genesis 1:5.It was evening of the light period that coupled with the night that ended when the next light period appeared was called the first day. Well no the Bible does not define a 24 hour day from sundown to sundown.If you think so show your reasoning from the text. Yes the Jews do go from sundown to sundown for their day.And we go from midnight to midnight.Your definition #5. #1 agrees with the statement "And God called the light Day".
#2 agrees with the statement "Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."#3 and #4 are the same as #2 a 24 hour day.So we have a light period and a dark period that constitute a day.Now is the age in #5 multiple days?Is Grandfather's day refering to a specific day in grandfather's life or is it refering to the days of grandfather's life?You did notice "the good old days" didn't you?You did notice "the daysof sailing ships" didn't you?The problem is in the day God created the Heaven and the Earth was the light period that had ended at Genesis 1:2. Because God coupled it with that dark period that ended when the next light period began that period of light and dark God declared the first day. And if you think English is hard try a few years of Biblical Hebrew at the College level. I will agree with you as long as the age does not consist of multiple light and dark periods as we have today. Why does the Bible have to make sense to the natural man? Why can't you have a few billion years of existence as we count time in one single light period?In Revelation John tells us of a New Heaven and a New Earth that will need no sun or moon. It does not say they will not exist just that they are not needed for light. In Genesis 1:5-18 God set up time for modern man.That is why man's concept of time is determined by the rotation of the earth in relationship to the sun.A means of measuring time was not necessary until modern mankind the ones created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27. Well the Bible was written in a very specific language and our English has a very hard time representing it. So if you don't let the Bible be it own best interperter you will be dependent upon what some man's idea is of what it says. But the man in Genesis 2:7 was not created in the image/likeness of God.The text says God formed him from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into that form and that form became a living being.No where does it mention this man being in the image/likeness of God.The Bible does say he became like God when he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Gen. 3:22This man had to die in the day (light period) he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or God lied when He said: This man nor any of his decendants existed at Genesis 1:2The mankind created in Genesis 1:27 male and female was not a decendant of the man in Genesis 2:7He was created under the penalty of the transgression of that man as sin had entered into the universe by his disobedience and therefore all mankind was condemned to die and was separated from a relationship with God as the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 had before he disobeyed God.That is why it was necessary for a sacrifice to provide a way mankind could be restored to the relationship God had with the man in the Garden before that man disobeyed God.People have this foolish idea that mankind will go to the lake of fire because of deeds they do. That is Satan's lie.Mankind is condemned already to the lake of fire. There is a remedy for this condemnation. Verse 18 tells us man is condemned already.It also tells u why man is condemned."because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"Mankind is condemned because He has not trusted God to give him eternal life. The order is different because as I have been affirming in this thread they are two different stories about two different events separated by a massive duration. Actually 6 days if you start with the evening found at Genesis 1:2.You start with evening and the following light period is the first day. Thus you only have a dark period.The evening of that light period and the following morning is declared day two.The end of that light period and the following morning is declared day three.The end of that light period and the following morning is declared day four.The end of that light period and the following morning is declared day five.The end of that light period and the following morning is declared day six.And on the seventh day God ceased His creation.The seventh day did not begin until the morning that follow the dark period day six.Thus you have 6 days unless you add the light period in which the Heaven and the Earth was created in.You do not even have the dark portion of the seventh day mentioned.So you only have six dark periods and six light periods. No seventh light period or dark period. But I can accept it as the age of creation as long as it is one light period.That is what God declared when He called the darkness night and combined it to the light period the Heaven and the Earth came into existence in. Which God declared the first day in Gen. 1:5. No I just trust the Hebrew Scholars more than I do those who compile our dictionaries with all of our coloquial input into it.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi PD, The simple usage of day, an example.I got up yesterday morning at daybreak and spent the "day" working on the property at the Church when I got home it was dark..That equals a simple day.Today I went back and worked most of the day at the Church which makes 2 days working at the Church.I guess you could call it in the day that I worked at the Church but that would not be accurate. Would it?I guess you could call it in the age I worked at the Church but that would not be accurate either. Would it?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Back in the day (over a twenty-year period), I used to work at the church too.

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

Hi ringo, And I have probably mentioned both a couple of dozen times in this thread.But here is one more. God called the light period Day.God called the darkness night.God called the light period combined with the dark period the first day.The Heaven and Earth was created in a Day according to Genesis 2:4.The Heaven and Earth was created in a light period that had ended in darkness at Genesis 1:2.In Genesis 1:5 God called that (Day) light period combined with the dark period found at Genesis 1:2 that ended with the following morning (light period) the first day. I will agree that there was many days and nights in the age in Genesis 18:11 but יןם (yom)is not the word translated age להיות is, and is a plurality of days.So the usage of להיות and its translation does not change the usage and translation of יןם in Genesis 1:5. Here is the Hebrew word translated day. יןםHere is the Hebrew word translated age in Genesis 18:11 להיותHere is the Hebrew word translated time in Genesis 4:3 ימיםThe html code for the Hebrew does not put the left curve at the top of the Vav.Now You have three different Hebrew words that you want to translate day. It does not work that way. That is the reason the translators translated them as they did. Were they perfect no. Where did you get your theology degree including Hebrew and Greek at?There is only one definition of יןם as God defined it in Genesis 1:5.There are many definitions of the modifications of the Hebrew word יןם that can be made by adding suffixes and prefixes. Suffixes can show possessive or objective. Prefixes can add and, but, In, on, with by, the, like as, to, for, from, turn a verb into the person who does it. turn a noun into a verb show masculine plural, feminine plural you, your, we, us, our. Well the problem is that you can not change the definition of the Hebrew word יןם that is defined by God in Genesis 1:5.The same Hebrew word יןם is in Genesis 2:4. with an added prefix ביןם making the meaning on the Day.In other words everything in the history given took place on the same Day as the Heaven and the Earth was created. I am glad you only suggested there was no man around instead of asserting there was no man around. I would have asked for your evidence for such an assertion.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi ringo, What day was that?Are you talking about 20 years ago that you worked in the Church?ORAre you saying that in the past your worked at the Church for over a 20 year period?ORDid you work one day at the Church over 20 years ago.Your statement leaves too many unanswered questions.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

To anybody with a smattering of knowledge of the English language, the meaning is clear: At some time in the past and for a period of time covering twenty years, I periodically did some work at the church.Yes, it does leave unanswered questions. Language often does that. That's why we have questions.All languages have figures of speech that can't be taken literally. If you made a heavy-duty umbrella for when it rains cats and dogs, you'd look just as silly as you do in this thread.

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

Actually, I wanted you to show that the word yom is singular in Genesis 1:5 and also in Genesis 2:4, as opposed to plural in the other examples. (And could you make your Hebrew font a little bigger? The way you're doing it, the distinctions are hard to see.) No. I have three different instances of the word yom (twice in Genesis 1:5 and once in Genesis 2:4) that are translated as "day" in the KJV. It may be that it is singular in all three instances and plural in the other examples but you haven't shown that clearly yet. It's the "definitions of the modifications" that we're talking about. If there's a modification in Genesis 2:4 that makes it singular, show us. That isn't a definition. God called the light day. He didn't define a day as a light period. Is there a distinction between "on the day" and "in the day"? There is in English. "On the day" usually refers to one 24-hour day but "in the day" means more like "during the time period". I will assert that only an idiot would think there was a man around shortly after the Big Bang.Edited by ringo, : Capitalized "Bang" (OCD moment).

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi