Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,911 Year: 4,168/9,624 Month: 1,039/974 Week: 366/286 Day: 9/13 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Counter-Intuitive Science
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 141 of 182 (600768)
01-17-2011 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by RAZD
01-16-2011 10:20 PM


Re: Counter-Intuitive Math
RAZD writes:
I think I agree with Panda: how does the host not knowing the answer change this picture:
I think the reasoning is:
Since there is now a chance of Monty winning the car, your chance of winning the car (on the right hand side of your diagram) must be lower.
I have given this more thought, and I am leaning towards the 50:50 answer.
i.e. You stand a 1:3 chance of winning if you stick, 1:3 chance of winning if you switch (and Monty has a 1:3 of winning).
To use the normal teaching method for elucidating the standard Monty Hall question: Imagine that there were 100 doors...
You randomly choose a door (e.g. Door 15).
Monty randomly chooses 98 doors (e.g. Doors 1-14 and Doors 16-99).
If you applied the reasoning of your image, then we would have a 99:100 chance of winning if we switch.
But that is incorrect: Monty has a 98:100 chance of winning.
Whether you switch or not, you would have a 1:100 chance of winning the car.
If Monty was to actually open each of his doors (instead of just 'choosing' them), the the odds would only change if he choose a door with a car behind - i.e. you chance of winning is zero.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by RAZD, posted 01-16-2011 10:20 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2011 11:25 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 143 of 182 (600837)
01-17-2011 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by NoNukes
01-17-2011 11:25 AM


Re: Counter-Intuitive Math
NoNukes writes:
The question asks what one should do when Monty shows a goat. In other words, Monty's possibility of showing the car should be removed from the considered outcomes, and probabilities would be calculated based on the remaining possible outcomes.
I think I was getting myself mixed up.
If Monty randomly chooses a door (and doesn't open it) then switching is a 50:50 choice.
If Monty randomly opens a door with a goat, then you should switch.
The chance of you winning the car has dropped (because Monty can now win it).
The chance that switching is favourable has stayed the same (if Monty doesn't open the 'car' door).
Considering that I am posting this as I run out the door from work again: expect adjustments later!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2011 11:25 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 145 of 182 (600853)
01-17-2011 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ringo
01-17-2011 1:29 PM


Re: Counter-Intuitive Math
ringo writes:
In any case, Open the Goat! would be an excellent name for a TV show.
I can already hear the crowd clapping and shouting "OPEN THE GOAT! OPEN THE GOAT! OPEN THE GOAT!" and the THWUCK! as Oprah cleaves open the goat with one swing of her mighty machete.
The crowd roars!! ...covering up the small, quiet sound of children crying.
No doubt the parents will reprimand them later for being 'soft'.
But I digress...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 01-17-2011 1:29 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 150 of 182 (600917)
01-17-2011 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by RAZD
01-17-2011 6:08 PM


Re: Counter-Intuitive Math
RADZ writes:
But you are forgetting to include the results of sit C in your calcs. Just because you see the car, it doesn't mean you don't lose.
The thing to remember is that we are only interested in answering the question: "Should I swap or stay?".
If Monty chooses the car, then the question is moot; the answer is neither "swap" nor "stay".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2011 6:08 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2011 7:55 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 159 of 182 (601468)
01-20-2011 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by slevesque
01-20-2011 5:27 PM


Re: More counterintuitive Maths
slevesque writes:
Anyone else can solve these problems, see if I'm at least half-right ?
I'll have a go at writing some code to do 1,000,000 iterations and I'll post the results.
I should get the time and inclination to do it tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by slevesque, posted 01-20-2011 5:27 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 167 of 182 (601533)
01-21-2011 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by RAZD
01-20-2011 7:55 PM


Re: Counter-Intuitive Math
RAZD writes:
Curiously, you do not walk away with the car. You still have the option to swap or stay, whether you have a possibility of winning or not.
I think the only disagreement we have is in regards to how the question is phrased and not on what the answer is.
1:3 chance of winning the car.
Stay/Swap is 50:50.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2011 7:55 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by petrophysics1, posted 01-21-2011 9:48 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 169 of 182 (601553)
01-21-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by petrophysics1
01-21-2011 9:48 AM


Re: Counter-Intuitive Math
petrophysics1 writes:
...except that what happened to your 1/3 odds when the goat was seen in one of the doors is your odds for your original choice became 2/3.
Imagine there were 3 people playing this game:
You pick Door 1. Monty picks Door 2. I pick Door 3.
We all have a 1:3 chance of winning the car.
But you are claiming that if Monty randomly shows a goat, then my chances of winning drop and yours increases, which is clearly not true.
Remember, this is not the same as the standard Monty Hall question - Monty doesn't know where the car is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by petrophysics1, posted 01-21-2011 9:48 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024