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Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 106 of 192 (623407)
07-10-2011 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by zi ko
07-09-2011 4:56 PM


Re: I need clear answers
Empathy acting over long time periods on same genomic place can have a permanent effect .

The problem you have is that you have no supporting evidence for empathy having any direct effect on evolution.

You may as well say 'love' has a direct effect on evolution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by zi ko, posted 07-09-2011 4:56 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by zi ko, posted 07-10-2011 9:10 AM Larni has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1965 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 107 of 192 (623421)
07-10-2011 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Larni
07-10-2011 5:49 AM


Re: I need clear answers
Larmi writes:


Empathy acting over long time periods on same genomic place can have a permanent effect .

The problem you have is that you have no supporting evidence for empathy having any direct effect on evolution.

You may as well say 'love' has a direct effect on evolution.

Once somebody accepts the evidence(?) by epigenetics that interraction with environment (not by natural selection) means information flow, then accepting empathy's role is not difficult.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Larni, posted 07-10-2011 5:49 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Larni, posted 07-10-2011 11:19 AM zi ko has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 108 of 192 (623428)
07-10-2011 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by zi ko
07-10-2011 9:10 AM


Re: I need clear answers
What about organisms that do not have the neural architecture to experience empathy?

What we would expect to see is organisms that can experience empathy having an accelerated rate of adaption to the environment.

Do you have any evidence of this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by zi ko, posted 07-10-2011 9:10 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by zi ko, posted 07-10-2011 2:57 PM Larni has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1965 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 109 of 192 (623441)
07-10-2011 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Larni
07-10-2011 11:19 AM


Re: I need clear answers
What about organisms that do not have the neural architecture to experience empathy?
What we would expect to see is organisms that can experience empathy having an accelerated rate of adaption to the environment.

Do you have any evidence of this?

Organisms with no neural system have chemicals ,engineering systems, slicing and HGT mechanisms, mutations, paramutations natural selection.

Empathy acts as direct information does, but it can have a more permanent effect on genome, as it it acts repeatedly on the same genome area over long time, maybe thousands of years and has about the same emotional content.

No evidence unfortunately. Only speculation at present.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Larni, posted 07-10-2011 11:19 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ZenMonkey, posted 07-10-2011 4:55 PM zi ko has not yet responded
 Message 111 by Larni, posted 07-10-2011 5:41 PM zi ko has responded
 Message 114 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 12:49 AM zi ko has responded

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2856 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 110 of 192 (623457)
07-10-2011 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by zi ko
07-10-2011 2:57 PM


Re: I need clear answers
zi ko writes:

No evidence unfortunately. Only speculation at present.

This statement is the best and most concise statement of your position to date. Thank you for clarifying.

I suggest that you cut and paste this and use it for all future replies on your part. It will save time.


Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by zi ko, posted 07-10-2011 2:57 PM zi ko has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 111 of 192 (623462)
07-10-2011 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by zi ko
07-10-2011 2:57 PM


Re: I need clear answers
No evidence unfortunately. Only speculation at present.

Well, thanks for admitting that it is only speculation. Several other posters could learn a lot from your honesty.

As someone who I hope will stay around I would advise you that many people on this site use the scientific methodology. Simply put it is fine to have and idea, but before we can make any claims to the veracity of our idea we need evidence to support what we believe.

You could be right when you say that empathy drives evolution but at this point it is only speculation. It's fine to speculate but people here will give you a hard time when you extrapolate beyond the evidence.

All the best.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by zi ko, posted 07-10-2011 2:57 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 2:33 AM Larni has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 112 of 192 (623495)
07-11-2011 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by zi ko
07-09-2011 11:46 AM


Re: I need clear answers
Isaid Darwin and other contemporary scientists.

Yes, scientists contemporary to Darwin such as Weismann. Please, fast forward to the 21st century.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by zi ko, posted 07-09-2011 11:46 AM zi ko has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 113 of 192 (623496)
07-11-2011 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by zi ko
07-09-2011 4:56 PM


Re: I need clear answers
Empathy is a type of information connected with organism survival.

I can agree with that in a round-about way. So let's not argue this point for now.

The problem that you have is that empathy is a function of DNA sequence, not the other way around. Humans are able to empathize because we have DNA sequences that result in a brain capable of empathizing. You have things back asswards.

It is usefull to life and i believe nature in its economy wouldn't let it to be wasted.

Perhaps you should do some research on the human extensor coccygis muscle. It is a muscle found on the dorsal surface of our tailbone. In other animals this muscle is used to lift the tail. In humans, it spans a fused joint in the coccyx, the human remnant of the structure that was used to support a tail in our ancestors. It is as useful as tits on a boar, to use a colloquialism. So your fantasy about economy in nature simply does not exist, and the extensor coccygis is but one small example. The more you study biology the more you start to realize how kludgy evolution can be. If I were to point to the man who best understood the designer of life, that man would be Rube Goldberg.

Empathy acting over long time periods on same genomic place can have a permanent effect .

Other way around. Natural selection acting on different areas of the genome resulted in the empathy found in humans.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by zi ko, posted 07-09-2011 4:56 PM zi ko has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 114 of 192 (623497)
07-11-2011 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by zi ko
07-10-2011 2:57 PM


Re: I need clear answers
No evidence unfortunately. Only speculation at present.

Just as long as we both understand that it is speculation that is fine. There are many theories in science today that started as speculations.

In order to get to the theory stage you need to do more than speculate. You need to figure out some sort of experiment, and then figure out what results would either confirm or falsify your theory/hypothesis. Science is one part inspiration and one part hard work. The hard part is designing experiments that will tell you if your speculation is right or wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by zi ko, posted 07-10-2011 2:57 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 2:39 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1965 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 115 of 192 (623621)
07-12-2011 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Larni
07-10-2011 5:41 PM


Re: I need clear answers
You could be right when you say that empathy drives evolution but at this point it is only speculation. It's fine to speculate but people here will give you a hard time when you extrapolate beyond the evidence.

What is the evidence that mutations are strictly random and not information or function driven? Isn't speculation? You don't seem to worry about it.


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Larni, posted 07-10-2011 5:41 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by AZPaul3, posted 07-12-2011 3:12 AM zi ko has not yet responded
 Message 118 by Larni, posted 07-12-2011 9:01 AM zi ko has responded
 Message 119 by Taq, posted 07-13-2011 12:35 PM zi ko has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1965 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 116 of 192 (623623)
07-12-2011 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Taq
07-11-2011 12:49 AM


Re: I need clear answers

No evidence unfortunately. Only speculation at present.

Just as long as we both understand that it is speculation that is fine. There are many theories in science today that started as speculations.

In order to get to the theory stage you need to do more than speculate. You need to figure out some sort of experiment, and then figure out what results would either confirm or falsify your theory/hypothesis. Science is one part inspiration and one part hard work. The hard part is designing experiments that will tell you if your speculation is right or wrong.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you!


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 12:49 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4788
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 117 of 192 (623626)
07-12-2011 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by zi ko
07-12-2011 2:33 AM


Mutations are Random
What is the evidence that mutations are strictly random and not information or function driven?

These can help get you started on answering this question.

Lederberg

Blog entry by Prof MacNeill, Cornell Univ

In evolution theory why is random mutation random while natural selection is not random?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 2:33 AM zi ko has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 118 of 192 (623644)
07-12-2011 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by zi ko
07-12-2011 2:33 AM


Re: I need clear answers
What is the evidence that mutations are strictly random and not information or function driven? Isn't speculation? You don't seem to worry about it.

This is where your mode of thought clashes with the scientific methodology.

You ask here why we don't concider empathy as a driver for evolution: the reason that no one conciders empathy as a driver for evolution is because there is no reason to.

What you (again!) seem to be saying is that you have a suspision that empthay drives evolution.

I'm fine with that but you need to suport your idea with some evidence for anybody in the scientific world to take you seriously.

You could be correct, but you have to show us that you correct.

You can't appeal to other people to prove you right and expect that to fly in a science forum.

Edited by Larni, : can to can't


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 2:33 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by zi ko, posted 07-16-2011 10:55 AM Larni has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 119 of 192 (623790)
07-13-2011 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by zi ko
07-12-2011 2:33 AM


Re: I need clear answers
What is the evidence that mutations are strictly random and not information or function driven?

AZPaul mentioned the Lederberg experiment which is one of the classic experiments which demonstrate how mutations are random with respect to fitness. In that example, the Lederbergs discovered that mutations conferring antibiotic resistance occur in the absence of antibiotics, not in response to the presence of antibiotics.

Another great example is the Luria-Delbruck fluctuation experiment. Like the Lederbergs' experiment, Luria and Delbruck demonstrated that beneficial mutations occur in the absence of an environment in which the mutation would be beneficial. In this particular case, they demonstrated that mutations confering phage resistance occurred in an environment devoid of bacteriophage. They used the same experimental design to confirm the Lederberg's findings as well.

Both of these experiments demonstrate a disconnect between mutagenesis and the needs of the organism. They demonstrated that the process which produces variation is blind to what is beneficial, detrimental, or neutral.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 2:33 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by zi ko, posted 07-14-2011 12:59 PM Taq has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1965 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 120 of 192 (623910)
07-14-2011 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Taq
07-13-2011 12:35 PM


Re: I need clear answers
AZPaul mentioned the Lederberg experiment which is one of the classic experiments which demonstrate how mutations are random with respect to fitness. In that example, the Lederbergs discovered that mutations conferring antibiotic resistance occur in the absence of antibiotics, not in response to the presence of antibiotics.

It is knoun that fungi produce antibiotics in nature. How the authors
had excluded that some bacteria had met these fungi?


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Taq, posted 07-13-2011 12:35 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Wounded King, posted 07-14-2011 1:13 PM zi ko has responded
 Message 122 by Taq, posted 07-14-2011 3:22 PM zi ko has responded

  
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