|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,889 Year: 4,146/9,624 Month: 1,017/974 Week: 344/286 Day: 65/40 Hour: 1/5 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3648 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Shapiro and Wright had been studying bacteria only. But they say that macroevolution in multi cell organisms is mainly information driven. We have been saying the same thing, that species evolve through information that moves from the environment to the population through the filter of natural selection. They say information comes directly from outer or inner invironment WITHOUT THE FILTERING BY NATURAL SELECTION( capitalization is mine). What you are saying is entirely different.
The replica plate had its own characteristics that they may didn't enhance mutation rates. This doesn't explain why the clones on the replica plate came from the same spot on the master plate. The only explanation for this is that the mutation occurred on the master plate before the bacteria were exposed to antibiotics on the replica plates.\ I could say the same about the conditions of master plate. Mind you i don't exlude random mutations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
They say information comes directly from outer or inner invironment WITHOUT THE FILTERING BY NATURAL SELECTION( capitalization is mine). What you are saying is entirely different.
It is only the information that is passed on to each generation that is important in the process of macroevolution. In this case, natural selection is the filter.
I could say the same about the conditions of master plate. Why would you say this? The master plate is made up of a very rich medium that bacteria have no problem growing on. So what is it about the plates that predisposes the bacteria to mutations confering antibiotic resistance?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13040 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Hi Zi Ko,
One thread is sufficient for discussing your ideas about information. This is your thread, it's about information, so your ideas about information should be discussed here. Please stop discussing them over in the Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement? thread.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13040 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Hi Zi Ko,
Here at EvC Forum we greatly prefer that participants present in their own words the material they believe supports their ideas, only using links as supporting references.
zi ko writes: You either don't seem to know the work of Shapiro, Wright, Pigliucci, Yablonca, studies in epigenetics. Arguments from authority should be avoided. If you feel familiarity with some person's work is important to understanding your ideas then it is incumbent upon you to provide that familiarity by describing their work here in your own words. Please do not quote them at any length beyond a sentence or two. When you provide links, if it is longer than a single page then please be specific as to where the information appears.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Larni writes:
You say you are not a biologist and yet you want people to take you seriously?I don't get why you think your armchair philosophising has any likely hood of getting any traction in biological circles when biologists on this very site are telling you your ideas and bollocks. This line of reasoning limits this board to contributions by scientists only. Why have a debate board limited to persons of one discpline.The reason, I a layman, cite authority for my positions is that I do not have the scientific training to reply to many scientific points. However, I can read what other scientists say and use them as authority for my position. It is not armchair philosphy, it is opinions based upon the knowledge of experts in the field, cited to support our opinions.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
The reason, I a layman, cite authority for my positions is that I do not have the scientific training to reply to many scientific points. You need this same training to put those citations in context with the rest of science.
However, I can read what other scientists say and use them as authority for my position. The other problem you seem to have is that you insert your own ideas into what the scientists are actually saying. That is why a knowledge of the data that underpins their conclusions is important. It removes this bias. You lack this knowledge. I would be more than willing to help share my knowledge in this arena. My suggestion is that we all dissect a paper by Barbara Wright (this one). Would you be willing to walk through this paper with me?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
It is not armchair philosphy, it is opinions based upon the knowledge of experts in the field, cited to support our opinions. But zi ko does not know what the research he keeps citing actually says; as this entire thread has shown for all to see. It's like arguing with someone from the dark ages(or the bible belt in modern day USA) where people would believe anything if it sounds reasonable.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
taq writes:
The other problem you seem to have is that you insert your own ideas into what the scientists are actually saying. That is why a knowledge of the data that underpins their conclusions is important. It removes this bias. You lack this knowledge. I would be more than willing to help share my knowledge in this arena. My suggestion is that we all dissect a paper by Barbara Wright (this one). Would you be willing to walk through this paper with me? Yes I would. I have down loaded the paper, I like to read, highlight, and digest before I comment.What protocol do you suggest in walking through the paper?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
What protocol do you suggest in walking through the paper? The way I picture it, I could help clarify any questions you have as it relates to the methods and results sections. Before we can have any fruitful discussion you need to understand what each of the figures/tables are saying and how the authors got that data. After that, we can parse the authors' conclusions. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3648 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
It is not armchair philosphy, it is opinions based upon the knowledge of experts in the field, cited to support our opinions. But zi ko does not know what the research he keeps citing actually says; as this entire thread has shown for all to see. It's like arguing with someone from the dark ages(or the bible belt in modern day USA) where people would believe anything if it sounds reasonable. I clearly had said that my idea of empathy affecting genome and neural system participation in evolution is entirely theoretical with no supporting evidence , based only on logical argumentation. I started from where Shapiro, Wright ect had stopped. That is why i mention them. If you don t like their sayings and scientific findings you can disprove them, or state that they are talking nonsense.Black age and cetera are only in your fantasy. Maybe you would like to be like this, in your effort to support your self esteem . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Put space after the ":" in subtitle to get rid of smilie.Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3648 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
What protocol do you suggest in walking through the paper? Maby it would be useful if there is first a definition about your argumentation will be just a debate between a creationist and a naturalist.In this case it will be i think once more useless. IF you stick only to scientific data, i would like it very much. It is also useful to define what is "random". Light for examble when passing through a crystal changes to a specific direction. Is that change random?l Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
I would be willing to help with the methods section, also.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
If you don t like their sayings and scientific findings you can disprove them, or state that they are talking nonsense. It's not them I take issue with, it's you. If you can't back up your theory with evidence or reasoned argument it is worse than useless, in scientific circles. That is my justification for calling you an armchair philosopher; you may as well debate how many angels can dance on a pin head.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Maybe an in-depth dissection of that paper deserves a thread of its own.
TTFN, WK
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3648 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
It is only the information that is passed on to each generation that is important in the process of macroevolution. In this case, natural selection is the filter. I am not sure i undestand. Could you please be more detailed?
The master plate is made up of a very rich medium that bacteria have no problem growing on. Maybe the rich medium is the problem.Starvation enhances mutation rates.Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024