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Author Topic:   New theory about evolution between creationism and evolution.
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 314 of 433 (627998)
08-06-2011 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Larni
08-05-2011 4:10 AM


Re:Could Empathy as a type of information affect genome?
Do i have to prove it again that information affects genome? Others, as Shapiro ect had done it well.
Empathy is atype of information. Do you want me to say that empathy in spite of this it can't affect genome? Wouldn't then i should have to bring evidence about it?

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Larni, posted 08-05-2011 4:10 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Panda, posted 08-06-2011 8:24 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 316 by Larni, posted 08-06-2011 5:08 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 317 of 433 (628157)
08-07-2011 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by Panda
08-06-2011 8:24 AM


Re: Re:Could Empathy as a type of information affect genome?
Zi Ko writes:
Do i have to prove it again that information affects genome? Others, as Shapiro ect had done it well.
Empathy is atype of information.
My telephone number is also a type of information.
Therefore my telephone number affects genomes.
That is illogical.
Lac of food (type of information) affects genome.
telefon numper is an is information and does not affect genome.
So information can affect genome?
The answer is: it depends on the type of information.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Panda, posted 08-06-2011 8:24 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Wounded King, posted 08-07-2011 6:11 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 319 by Panda, posted 08-07-2011 6:49 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 320 of 433 (628642)
08-11-2011 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Wounded King
08-07-2011 6:11 AM


Re: So not all information is sufficient, how do we tell?
Theoretically all types of information are capable of affecting genome. B ut in practice only information that is transferred by empathy, as it acts repeatedly over many generations,on the same senario and it has survival value, can act on genome. I am talking mainly about the lower animals with neural system, where empathetically trasferred information is burdened with strong distress and it has survival value.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Wounded King, posted 08-07-2011 6:11 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Panda, posted 08-11-2011 5:40 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 322 of 433 (628694)
08-12-2011 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Panda
08-11-2011 5:40 PM


Re: So not all information is sufficient, how do we tell?
You have no evidence - this means that there is no "But in practice...".
It is all "according to my theory"
We have "empathy a hard wired function in brain' according to researchers. What is your explanation of the existance and use of such hard wired mechanism and function?

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Panda, posted 08-11-2011 5:40 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Panda, posted 08-12-2011 11:26 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 324 by Taq, posted 08-12-2011 11:47 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 326 of 433 (628873)
08-13-2011 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Panda
08-12-2011 11:26 AM


Re: So not all information is sufficient, how do we tell?
zi ko writes:
What is your explanation of the existance and use of such hard wired mechanism and function?
I am not making claims about empathy: YOU ARE YOU need to support YOUR claims.
.
I am not asking you to prove or disprove empathy. I am asking to explain ,according to the current Theory, why evolution had given parts of brain to empathic information and not to your telephone number

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Panda, posted 08-12-2011 11:26 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Larni, posted 08-13-2011 6:27 PM zi ko has not replied
 Message 328 by Panda, posted 08-13-2011 7:41 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 329 of 433 (628929)
08-14-2011 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Wounded King
08-04-2011 11:45 AM


Re: There are random mutations?
You seem to be essentially making a philosophical claim that the apparent randomness is not truly fundamentally random, but since your hypothesis does not include any criteria on which the two could be told apart it is entirely worthless in scientific terms. Many creationists and IDists have a similar approach claiming that the apparent randomness of mutations serves to mask subtle interventions to direct evolution by the Intelligent Designer/ God.
You are right. With no defining of randomness any conversation about it is meaningless.Anything it happens in the living or not living world it is directed by some type of information. This is my philosofical thesis. I can't see how this thesis can not solve the same and maybe more broblems the other view, as you say , can solve.There are semidirected or entirely "non directed" mutations, but all of them are directed to life.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Wounded King, posted 08-04-2011 11:45 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 355 of 433 (655154)
03-07-2012 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Taq
01-26-2011 11:29 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
Hi Taq,
after long time looking back at 34 post i would like to make some notes:
Your theory should at least be able to explain the facts we do have and be able to make different predictions than that made by the current theory of evolution. For example, your theory should be able to explain why chimps and humans differ in some genes more than others, and be able to do so better than the current theory. So what should we see when comparing the human and chimps genomes, and what predictions does your theory make that the current theory does not?
Current theory as regards mutation CAN'T make any prediction at all.My theory at least can make the general prediction that LIFE WILL BE PRESERVED AT THE END, as far as earth, as we know it, will continue to exist. Guided mutations coexist with random ones and guided mutations do not preclute deleterious or neutral mutations; they only reduce the amount of the inconceivable amount of random mutations needed to lead to viable and effective organisms, specially in metazoa.
I am very much interested if you could explain for me why chimps and humans differ in some genes more than others on the basis of random mutations, as this is the point where Current theory and my theory really and mainly differ. All the predictions made by evolution theory on the basis of natural selection are equally made by my theory with the same sucess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Taq, posted 01-26-2011 11:29 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Trixie, posted 03-08-2012 3:52 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 357 by Wounded King, posted 03-08-2012 4:49 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 359 by Taq, posted 03-08-2012 11:49 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 358 of 433 (655178)
03-08-2012 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by Trixie
03-08-2012 3:52 AM


Re: Are there ONLY RANDOM MUTATIONS?
I think you've misunderstood what science means by predictions.
I am sorry, no this isn't the case. I was trying to reply to Taq's assertion about Current Theory predictive abilities on the BASIS OF MUTATION, which i very much doupt. In any case i don't claim my theory has more prediction ability than Current theory, but not less either.This it what i want to discuss about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Trixie, posted 03-08-2012 3:52 AM Trixie has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 360 of 433 (655255)
03-08-2012 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Taq
03-08-2012 11:49 AM


Re: Are there ONLY RANDOM MUTATIONS?
Sure it can. For example, we could look at the LTR's of orthologous endogeneous retroviruses (ERV's).
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Third, sequence divergence between the LTRs at the ends of a given provirus provides an important and unique source of phylogenetic information. The LTRs are created during reverse transcription to regenerate cis-acting elements required for integration and transcription. Because of the mechanism of reverse transcription, the two LTRs must be identical at the time of integration, even if they differed in the precursor provirus (Fig. 1A). Over time, they will diverge in sequence because of substitutions, insertions, and deletions acquired during cellular DNA replication.
Just a moment...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So we can predict that an orthologous ERV that inserted into the common ancestor of humans and african green monkeys will have more divergent LTR's than an ERV that is only shared by humans and chimps. This is exactly what we see, and what is evidenced in the paper cited above.
I can't pretend i fully understand this ERV stuff and its predictive value as regards randomness in mutations.In any case this complex example show the difficulty of the theory to give other more easily understandable examples. but what is the evidence that these supposed random mutageneses are not in fact guided from environment,external or internal? So we are back to the same basic issue:choosing between random or not random mutations is a matter of belief.
What guided mutations? Evidence please.
Again, what is the evidence for random mutations vs guided mutations?
Your theory is unfalsifiable. If a mutation is detrimental or neutral you claim it is a product of random mutations. If it is beneficial then you claim it is due to guided mutations even if it occurs through the same mechanisms as detrimental and neutral mutations. It is no different than watching John Smith win the lottery and then declaring the lottery was guided so that John Smith could win, and counting this as a prediction. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
I am afraid also current theory has the same problem at least up to now and it had a lot of time to prove itself.My teory hadn't had yet this time.
Maybe i have to stress again "guidance" in my hypothesis is "collecting" information from environment. Life matter is not dice. Your analogy is not right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Taq, posted 03-08-2012 11:49 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Taq, posted 03-09-2012 12:06 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 366 by subbie, posted 03-10-2012 12:14 AM zi ko has not replied
 Message 379 by Larni, posted 03-15-2012 9:59 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 361 of 433 (655266)
03-08-2012 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Wounded King
03-08-2012 4:49 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
It seems strange then that absolutely none of the evidence presented in favour of an actual mechanism for guided mutations seems to have been in the metazoa. The only putative mechanisms that been put forward, i.e. Wright's de-repression based system, only seem to work in the context of unicellular organisms and have no readily apparent way to apply to multicellular organisms where there is a separation of the germ line from the somatic cells.
This does not mean that such mechanisms don't exist.Neural intervention in evolution is a very new idea, so it is not logical to expect presently relative evidence of such mechanisms.
And welcome back to evolutionary genetics 101! This is absolutely basic stuff Zi Ko, and if you aren't familiar with it then you just don't understand evolutionary theory at all.
The simple answer is that the disparities are principally the result of natural selection.
I don't deny natural selection's role in evolution. It is randomness's in mutations predictive value that concerns me.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Wounded King, posted 03-08-2012 4:49 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Wounded King, posted 03-09-2012 4:27 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 364 by Taq, posted 03-09-2012 12:11 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 365 of 433 (655392)
03-09-2012 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Wounded King
03-09-2012 4:27 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
but when you ask why there are differences in the divergences of different genes between chimps and humans then you make it very clear that you ignore it, meaning that you are ignoring one of the central features of evolutionary theory.
As i had told you again. i just wanted face Taq's assertiion that guided mutations have no predictive value as compared with random mutations. He understood my remark and answered about it properly.
Why should random mutations themselves have a predictive value? Why should it concern you?
Don't you think this would help random mutations concept to be more easily accepted by reasonable people? This is the core of my argumentation on this thread.
Random mutations occur, they generated functional diversity and natural selection acts upon that functional diversity so as to over time shape the genomes of a population
With the same justification, somebody could say exactly the same about guided ,through environment -organism direct interaction, mutations with the same inpact on divercification and genomes through natural selection.
Why does he have to choose one over the other?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Wounded King, posted 03-09-2012 4:27 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 367 of 433 (655412)
03-10-2012 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by Taq
03-09-2012 12:06 PM


Re: Are there ONLY RANDOM MUTATIONS?
Luria and Delbruck Flucutaiton Experiment
Lederbergs' Plate Replica Experiment
These are just experiments ( very important of course) and as such have not any predictive value.
Any way you treat their results in the way they fit to your expectations and beliefs. I see them quite differently:
1.You can't apply them easily to metazoa, where things are much complicated and where nature life cannot rely it's preservation on pure chance. Now environmental information must be used to prevent the disorginizing effect of the expected more common deleterious mutations, through reducing their rates.
2.In one cell organisms nature can use more easily "randomness" in mutations for it's final goal, e.g ,life's preservation. So we can't really talk about real randomness.
How is this done? What are the molecular mechanisms that are involved? How does one design and experiment to test this hypothesis?
I n metazoa ,through neural system.With the same mechanism which informs and causes span life expectation reduction on descendants of ancestors that had suffered a famin some generations ago.( a Swedish study)
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Taq, posted 03-09-2012 12:06 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Taq, posted 03-12-2012 1:29 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 369 of 433 (655650)
03-12-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by Wounded King
03-12-2012 9:21 AM


Re: Zi Ko's new best friend?
I came across a paper recently and I find it hard to believe that it isn't one Zi Ko has brought to our attention. The paper is 'Neural Control of Gene Recruitment in Metazoans' by Nelson Cabej (2011) who also has a website http://www.epigeneticscomesofage.com .
It seems that Zi Ko and Dr. Cabej may be long lost soul mates.
Very interesting. I never knew anything about Dr Cabej or his work. Thank you any way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Wounded King, posted 03-12-2012 9:21 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 372 of 433 (655767)
03-13-2012 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Taq
03-12-2012 1:29 PM


Re: Are there ONLY RANDOM MUTATIONS?
The hypotheses that the papers tested through those experiments did have predictive value. Please read the Luria and Delbruck paper. They spell out numerous hypotheses that they test with those experiments, one of which is random mutagenesis.
OK , the experiment proves the existance of random mutations. But:
1.It does not preclude guided mutations in bacteria , as it didn't take on account the time factor of the stress, the type of the stimuli ,ect, and more so in metazoa.
2.Cairns and many others have proved and as it is generally now accepted, that bacteria in stress (i.e lack of glucose) cause increased rate of mutation (beneficial or or non). This fact makes in this case, guided mutations unnecessary. In more complicated organisms this randomess could be lethal l for the species. Randomness and non randomess are serving the same purpose; preseving life. So there isn't real randomness.
How does the rate reducing mechanism know which mutations to fix and which to not fix?
It rests on the needs of the organism.
But we can talk about the fact that the same mechanisms that produce beneficial mutations also produce neutral and detrimental mutations which is contrary to the hypothesis of guided mutations.
It is not contrary. We don't need to confine guided mutations to only beneficial mutations, but as a boad canalisation to a direction, that is relevant to the needs. Randomness still plays a role ( the continuation principal).
I n metazoa ,through neural system.
That is not a mechanism. That is make believe. A mechanism has evidence to back it up.
See W.K's 368 post.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Taq, posted 03-12-2012 1:29 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Wounded King, posted 03-13-2012 1:45 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3648 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 380 of 433 (656905)
03-23-2012 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Taq
03-08-2012 11:49 AM


Re: Do random mutations have predictive value?
.So we can predict that an orthologous ERV that inserted into the common ancestor of humans and african green monkeys will have more divergent LTR's than an ERV that is only shared by humans and chimps. This is exactly what we see, and what is evidenced in the paper cited above.
Why that means that guidance in some degree didn't happen? Yoy seem keep forgetting that guidance in mutations is not a strict procedure. It can be only an increase in mutation rates at specific site of genome.
What guided mutations? Evidence please.
Exactly the same "evidence" you provide for random mutations.
Your theory is unfalsifiable. If a mutation is detrimental or neutral you claim it is a product of random mutations. If it is beneficial then you claim it is due to guided mutations even if it occurs through the same mechanisms as detrimental and neutral mutations. It is no different than watching John Smith win the lottery and then declaring the lottery was guided so that John Smith could win, and counting this as a prediction. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
As it is yours of random mutations. Life can use even "randomness" to fulfill it's scopes. We both are in the same boat. We just rely on what belief we prefer to choose Again i repeat detrimental and neutral mutations can be a product in the guided procedure..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Taq, posted 03-08-2012 11:49 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by Taq, posted 03-23-2012 11:40 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 383 by Meddle, posted 03-23-2012 1:08 PM zi ko has replied

  
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