$50 to anyone who can prove to me Evolution is a lie.

navajoeverclear writes:

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I don't dispute the bacteria. I however do not see evolution as in shifting of species happeneing before my eyes.

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Logical error: Shifting the goalposts.You didn't ask for evidence of speciation. You asked for evidence of evolution.If you wanted evidence of speciation, then you should have asked for it: Observed Instances of Speciation
Some More Observed Speciation EventsThat said, what is the problem with the evidence from the bacteria that precludes speciation?That is, if you agree that 1 + 1 = 2, why can't 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 10? If you admit that the genome can change a little, why is it impossible for it to change as much as you like, given time?How does the chromosome know that it isn't allowed to mutate anymore? What chemical signal is there to inform the chromosome that if it mutates any more, it will create a new species, which isn't allowed, so it better not do that? Oh, if it had not done that last mutation, then it could do this next one, but the chromosome is only allowed to mutate X times, no more.

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Like i said, not all parts of evolution do i question,

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What parts do you? The more you hold back, the more it appears like you're not actually interested in learning anything but rather you are more interested in playing games.

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that thread on my specifics is coming

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I'll believe it when I see it.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

All major creationist organizations believe in speciation. Why do you disagree with them?

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by the same tolken, evolution is something someone thought up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------No, it was something that was observed. I just showed you how you could observe evolution happening right in front of your eyes. Your thinking doesn't change the bacteria or the phage.Something was observed yes, but i think a lot of conclusion are drawn beyond what is observable (yes i know religion does that, and you've surely guessed by now that i support some religion, my point is that you claim not to jump beyond what you absolutely know, and that your beliefs are fact)
Also whether or not i am extremely uneducated and stupid, i don't see why you have to be so defensive to me.

Ok, what conclusions would you draw from what is observable then? Could you start with th observations you are including and show how you arrive at those conclusions? Thanks.

i'm not sure i entirely understand what you are asking, but i'll try to say what i mean. You observe that animals are similar, certain animals are more similar than others, perhaps it appears one animal is a more advanced form of another. This makes sense, but the more i think about it the more holes i see in exactly how evolution works. Maybe these holes can be filled, schrafinator, can you beg those qualified biologists to give me some feedback? Mark said he'd be glad to help too(i'm sure you just haven't gotten on in a few days).someone help me before brad floods the thread (the one i started) with pscycho language at it's nasty most complicated state.[This message has been edited by navajoeverclear, 11-03-2003]

Let me answer your question with another question, to suggest to you the magnitude of the task paleontologists have before them.You have two complete fossil skeletons in front of you. They're almost, but not quite, the same. Are they members of different species, or do they represent two slightly different individuals of the same species?We define species as a "reproductive community". This is a great definition when we're trying to figure out whether or not two living organisms are in the same species. It sucks when we're talking about dead stuff.These are hard problems. Biologists work on this stuff every day, and nature seems to be trying as hard as it can to resist simple categorization. But just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not true, and evolution explains these problems a lot better than creationism does.

There are some other things observed, Navajo. (btw, you still aren't using the right reply button).First we see that 1,000,000,000 (Gyr) ago there are no traces of "complex" (multicellular life forms).After about 550 Myr ago we see a range of multicellular life forms that possess some of the characteristics of major taxonomic groups.In the 300 Myr ago range we see fish. The carries on.At each major stage we see a different range of life forms. There are some cases where there are clear connections between them. As we get closer to the present the range of living things is more like what is present now.There are some of the huge number of observations made. What inference would you draw from them?

Hi navajoeverclear,To make it easier for members to know if you are replying to them please use the reply button with the red arrow at the bottom of the particular post you are replying to. The large reply button at the bottom of the page is used for general posts to the board as a whole and not to a particular post.The smaller, individual post reply button leaves a notation at the bottom of the posts replied to and replied from. It also helps individual posters track their messages in their individual message index (found by clicking on the name of the poster in each message)------------------
AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

crashfrog- thanks for your post, my brain is too fried at the moment to think of much more to say-- could you please look at my other thread and help, like i said, brad is killing me.BTW--- is there any way to look at things like chromosomes in fossils, or are they basically broken down over such long time periods?Ned- the conclusion you could draw is that life is changing, evolving, improving. Makes perfect sense. As i said my problems come when it think deeper about it. For example how does chromosome addition/deletion work? it must happen. I don't want to know about examples in bacteria, there's a lot more variation on such level. What about humans-- how many chromosomes did the species preceding us have? Is there a way to know how a chromosome(s) was lost or gained to create our species? What is the theory about how this works? Please post your reply about this on the thread i started.It seems people are more concerned (not you specifically, i don't want to start conflict) with persecuting my creationist ways, instead of answering my questions. If it helps your tolerance level, think of me as a disabled or abused person. I was raised to believe in God, my psychology will take me a few years more to be healed from this implanted inefficient method of using my brain. Give me a break while i try to heal, at least I have the tendency to look further than most people inflicted with the disease of religion.(this isn’t the way I feel about myself, but of coarse I wouldn’t know how sick I am, I don’t see why you don’t look at me this way).I have not said there isn’t an answer to my question, if there is one please give it to me.

thanks for the info miss admin, often though i'm not replying specifically to only one person.

Ignore him. I'm of the opinion that he has an odd neurological condition, something like aphasia - he can't use language in the way that you and I do. It's very, very rare that we're able to get genetic data from fossils. Like Jurassic Park sometimes it survives in funny places, but genetic molecules almost never survive decomposition. Sometimes. For instance there's two human chromosomes that, if you put them together end-to-end, you get one of the chromosomes present in other apes. Suggesting that those two we have came about when that one chromosome in apes broke into two pieces.I heard that somewhere, anyway. One of the biologists here could tell you more.

navajoeverclear responds to me...I think...he doesn't use the right Reply button:

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by the same tolken, evolution is something someone thought up.

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No, it was something that was observed. I just showed you how you could observe evolution happening right in front of your eyes. Your thinking doesn't change the bacteria or the phage.

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Something was observed yes, but i think a lot of conclusion are drawn beyond what is observable

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Why? Have you not looked at the fossil record? Or are the fossils not observable? Have you not looked at the genetic evidence? Or is that, too, not observable?The theory of evolution is based upon a huge number of observations. It is not like a there is only a single experiment that makes biologists claim what they do.

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Also whether or not i am extremely uneducated and stupid,

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I never said you were.What I said was that all opinions need to be justified. I never said you didn't have any justifications...just that you hadn't presented any.

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i don't see why you have to be so defensive to me.

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I don't understand. We take your comments seriously and present you with information that directly goes to the statements you are making, and somehow this is problematic?I can understand that you may feel overwhelmed by all of the information being presented to you. That is, you may feel that you have asked a simple question and we have responded with a barrage of information in return. But there's a reason for that: Your question actually has been answered in a seemingly definitive method. It may be upsetting to have such a strong response shown to you, but that does not mean anybody is being "defensive."In fact, one has to wonder why you are reacting the way you are. If you are truly here to learn something, why must we withhold information from you?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

navajoeverclear writes:

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For example how does chromosome addition/deletion work?

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Have you considered doing some research and finding out.

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I don't want to know about examples in bacteria

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Why not? What is it about studying bacteria, which have fast generational times, that is so disconcerting that you must ignore it?

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there's a lot more variation on such level.

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Excuse me, but what do you mean by "variation"? How is the example of the bacteria that I gave you not an example of evolution?Remember, all the bacteria are descended from a single ancestor. Therefore, it cannot be "variation." Since they're all from a single ancestor, there is no "variation." There can only be evolution.And it isn't "adaptation," either. If one of the bacteria can do it, then they all can do it. Since they don't all do it, there is no "adaptation." There can only be evolution.

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What about humans

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What about us? Have you done any research on transposons, insertions, and the like? You seem to have a pre-conceived notion that such things can't possibly happen and yet you provide no justification as to why they can't.

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how many chromosomes did the species preceding us have?

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Well, the evidence from chromosome 2 seems to indicate that the ancestor previous to humans had 48 chromosomes rather than 46.You see, if you look at the chromosomes of humans and compare them to chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans, you find that the human chromosome 2 looks exactly like a fusion of these primates chromosomes 2p and 2q.Chromosomes have caps on the ends called "telomeres." If you look at the human chromosome 2, you will find that right in the middle of one of the branches is a telomeric sequence. Plus, if you look at the bands on the chromosome you will find that the human chromosome 2 looks like the bands of primate chromosome 2p, the telomeric sequence, and then the primate chromosome 2q bands in reverse order.Here's some information about it, including pictures showing the bands: Comparison of the Human and Great Ape Chromosomes as Evidence for Common Ancestry

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It seems people are more concerned (not you specifically, i don't want to start conflict) with persecuting my creationist ways

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Um, you claim you "don't want to start conflict," and yet you accuse people of "persecuting" you. That doesn't seem to be a consistent statement.

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instead of answering my questions.

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Could you give an example of a question you have asked that hasn't been answered?You're playing games. Stop beating around the bush and come out with it.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog writes:

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For instance there's two human chromosomes that, if you put them together end-to-end, you get one of the chromosomes present in other apes. Suggesting that those two we have came about when that one chromosome in apes broke into two pieces.

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Actually, it's the other way around. The chromosome didn't break into two. Rather, it fused into one. A Translocation Between Man and Chimpanzee Chromosomes------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Thanks for the links, Rhain. Great info!