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Author
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Topic: The Annual War over Christmas -- by christians
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 1 of 63 (644528)
12-18-2011 8:13 PM
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The Daily Show with Trevor Noah - Season 27 - TV Series | Comedy Central US Christianity is once again declaring war . . . and trying to play the victim . . . again: I support the churches right to have a separate ceremony, and their right to call it whatever they want to ... I do NOT support a church telling a state or any other person what to call their tree or celebration. Enjoy Edited by Zen Deist, : added
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: Troll Thread
Hi Artemis Entreri
nice try at a troll thread. Curiously, I am not aware of any winter solstice time period celebration that involves trolls. I am aware of many winter solstice time period celebrations that involve decorated trees, mostly Norse derived. Amusingly, I am also not aware of any biblical reference to decorated evergreen trees. Perhaps you do? Thus, without any such reference being made available, I do not see any reasons for Christians to get upset in anyway over calling a decorated tree a "holiday tree" -- do you? Enjoy.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 11 of 63 (644910)
12-21-2011 2:15 PM
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A PC seasons's greetings . . .
from http://youtu.be/6qUmBT0gh08 (embedding disabled) Enjoy.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Heathen Tree Decorations
Hi Dr Adequate
Jeremiah writes: Thus says the Lord. Learn not the way of the heathen and be not dismayed at the signs of the heaven; for the nations are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain. For one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold. [quibbles] (1) I note that evergreen is not specified. (2) I note that midwinter festivities are not specified. [/quibbles] So the bible records that the use of decorated trees is by heathens (pagans), and that this is not to be emulated by Christians. Makes you wonder how this sits with those that claim that calling a decorated tree a "Holiday Tree" is part of the "War against Christmas" eh? Enjoy. Edited by Zen Deist, : quibbles
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2011 6:07 AM | | Dr Adequate has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 13 of 63 (644916)
12-21-2011 2:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by frako
12-21-2011 6:38 AM
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Gift Giving
Hi frako
I loved it as a child we have 3 guys that bring gifts and who does not like getting gifts. Presumably symbolizing the three wisemen bearing offerings for a new god? There are many midwinter celebrations that include gift giving (and feasts and trees and fire logs). Enjoy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by frako, posted 12-21-2011 6:38 AM | | frako has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by frako, posted 12-21-2011 3:46 PM | | RAZD has seen this message but not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Why December 25th?
Hi Artemis Entreri
I am Catholic biblical references are for protestants. So you agree that - there is no basis for a mass celebrating the "Birth of Christ" to be held on the 25th of December, and
- that there is no basis for calling any decorated trees "Christmas Trees"
. . . according to your faith. Do you agree that these yule tide customs and timing have been adopted from other beliefs? Do you agree that some Christians are trying to take over the celebrations and festivals from other cultures, traditions and beliefs? Enjoy.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Terrorist Christians??? Escalating the War???
Hi again Dr Adequate
Christians execute Santa. After giving him a good talking-to first. The jolly old elf was probably thinking "just shoot me already". quote:
Earlier this year we wrote about Repent Amarillo, a radical right-wing group operating in Texas that considers themselves to be, quite literally, an Army of God. And as God's army, they have taken it upon themselves to execute Santa Claus by firing squad - all in "good fun," of course - to remind everyone that Christmas is about Jesus Christ:
 Sounds like extremist religious terrorism to me. Are they on the Homeland Security watch list? Enjoy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2011 1:57 PM | | Dr Adequate has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 17 of 63 (644921)
12-21-2011 2:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by jar
12-21-2011 2:03 PM
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Re: biblical references are for protestants.
Hi jar,
Benedict XVI's Christmas Message writes: "The Word became flesh". The proclamation of Christmas is also a light for all peoples, for the collective journey of humanity. "Emmanuel", God-with-us, has come as King of justice and peace. I'm confused, does this mean that Pope Benedict XVI started the Christian War over midwinter festivities by celebrating a Christ Mass at this time? http://www.vatican.va/...io_20050419_short-biography_en.html
quote:
BIOGRAPHY OF HIS HOLINESS, POPE BENEDICT XVI Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI, was born at Marktl am Inn, Diocese of Passau (Germany) on 16 April 1927 (Holy Saturday) and was baptised on the same day.
It seems to me that his proclamations were made long after Christians started taking over "Christmas" from older beliefs? Enjoy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by jar, posted 12-21-2011 2:03 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by jar, posted 12-21-2011 3:06 PM | | RAZD has seen this message but not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 26 of 63 (644944)
12-21-2011 5:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 16 by rueh
12-21-2011 2:54 PM
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Happy Holidays celebrates ALL beliefs and traditions.
Hi reuh
Yes. Excellent.
No. I think that the celebrations and festivals have already been taken over. At this point, Christians or anyone who celebrates Christmas are only celebrating their own traditions. The first recorded history for a Christmas tree goes back as far as 1441. Over the years the exact specifics of the tree and celebration have changed but the overall tradition remains. I believe that qualifies as being around long enough to justify calling it their own tradition, ... Please note what I said in the Opening Post:
quote:
Message 1: I support the churches right to have a separate ceremony, and their right to call it whatever they want to ... I do NOT support a church telling a state or any other person what to call their tree or celebration.
A church can have their own celebration, but they cannot say what a US state (or other US) government celebration has to be or what it is called.
... as opposed to taking over others traditions. We have established that there are many faiths, beliefs, traditions, celebrations and cultures that occur during the midwinter\solstice\yuletide period. If in any doubt, see: Winter solstice - Wikipedia
quote:
The seasonal significance of the winter solstice is in the reversal of the gradual lengthening of nights and shortening of days. Depending on the shift of the calendar, the winter solstice usually occurs on December 21 to 23 each year in the Northern Hemisphere, and June 20 to 23 in the Southern Hemisphere.[3] Worldwide, interpretation of the event has varied from culture to culture, but most cultures have held a recognition of rebirth, involving holidays, festivals, gatherings, rituals or other celebrations around that time.[4]
and List of multinational festivals and holidays - Wikipedia
quote:
Many festivals of light take place in this period since the shortest day of the year in the northern hemisphere is the Winter Solstice. The time of year is generally referred to as the holiday season, which is where the term "Happy Holidays" originated.
In the US the "Holiday Season" generally runs from Thanksgiving to New Year's Day, and this is properly celebrated with a "Happy Holidays" greeting. Thus when a state government advertises and has a "Holiday Tree Lighting Ceremony" this is respectful of ALL faiths, beliefs, traditions, celebrations and cultures ... covering a period of time spanning the dates of many celebrations, including Christianity's birth celebration mass (even though there is no calendar day link between that purported event and the 25th of December). AND, when pundits and religious leaders talk about a "War on Christmas" - and claim that such celebrations of a "Holiday Tree Lighting Ceremony" are part of a "War on Christmas" -- they are actually talking about their war against other faiths, beliefs, traditions, celebrations and cultures. Enjoy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by rueh, posted 12-21-2011 2:54 PM | | rueh has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by rueh, posted 12-22-2011 8:40 AM | | RAZD has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: Blasphemy!
Hi hooah212002,
What is solstice/christmas/whatever without bloody snow?????? This is preposterous! And the forecast here in RI is for rain and 40 degrees . . . looks at snowshoes . . . sigh Enjoy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by hooah212002, posted 12-21-2011 5:24 PM | | hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 35 of 63 (645002)
12-22-2011 9:19 AM
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Celestial Solstice
Happy celebrations all on this celestial day. Enjoy.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 42 of 63 (645069)
12-22-2011 8:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 33 by rueh
12-22-2011 8:40 AM
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Re: Happy Holidays celebrates ALL beliefs and traditions.
Hi again rueh,
I hate being p.c.) but how many other holiday traditions involve tree lighting? I ask out of ignorance actually. I just believe that you should call something what it is. If you are performing a tree lighting and none of the other cultures or traditions involve the lighting of a tree. And yet they exist. I know of many people that have a holiday tree or a yule tree.
I just believe that you should call something what it is. I guess that also depends on how much you want the meaning of the name to change with the changing traditions and the way it is actually used. If you want "Christmas" to mean crass and rampant commercialism -- symbolized this year by Santa running to Target, for example, or by the "game on" adds for Best Buy, or car adds with a Santa salesman -- if you think presents under a tree are more important than other aspects of the season, say going to a Christ Mass, or family gatherings, then by all means call it Christmas . . . Curiously, I don't see that the "War on Christmas" is about defending the crass and rampant commercialism. In my mind the term "Christmas" is more under attack by it's indiscriminate use for an overblown season of crass and rampant commercialism than it is by calling the state tree a "Holiday Tree". Enjoy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by rueh, posted 12-22-2011 8:40 AM | | rueh has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by hooah212002, posted 12-22-2011 9:15 PM | | RAZD has seen this message but not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 49 of 63 (645132)
12-23-2011 2:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by Buzsaw
12-23-2011 12:37 AM
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Re: Scrooge Weighs In 
Hi Buzsaw, and a happy season's greetings to you.
So as to keep the peace in the empire he mingled some paganism into Christianity. For example, in 325, at the Council of Nicaea he persuaded those present that Easter should be celebrated by all as a holiday (holy day). This would suffice to placate both Christians and pagans since spring time was significant to some of the pagan gods as noted in the link. The link also explains why the sabbath was changed from the 7th day to Sunday, i.e. Sun-day, significant to sun worshipers. I've cited this to say that the precedence was early established in the RCC to adopt some paganism into Christianity. And this should be well known by now.
The cut and decorated tree is referenced in the OT ancient times by the prophet, Jeremiah in chapter 10. It applied to pagan worship by pagans in the nations. And thus calling one a "holiday tree" should be of no concern to Christians in general. They can still celebrate Christmas in their way and in accordance with their personal traditions.
My family has celebrated Christmas as a tradition. All of my relatives and my boys still do. I don't judge others on this count, as there are some aspects of it that can be applicable to Biblical doctrines. My wife and I have not had a tree for quite a few years now. For ourselves, we see it as something that God is not please with, as per the Jeremiah text. However, when we visit the boys or anyone else, we never bring it up or make an issue of it, unless it is something that is mutually discussed. We do exchange gifts and celebrate it, relating it to the birth of Jesus, though tis not really the season of his birth. And I fully support you in following your traditions and beliefs.
To summarize, holiday/holy day more accurately applies to both pagans and Christians, in that it can be regarded by either as a holy day. And to anyone from all the other faiths and beliefs and traditions. Enjoy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2011 12:37 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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