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Author
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Topic: When does human life begin?
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Granny Magda writes:
Personally, I agree that a zygote is a "human life". I would not agree that it is an individualhuman life, nor a person So when does it become a "person"? That in my opinion is a pretty important issue.
Granny Magda writes:
Well welcome to the world! In the real world we have to make these kinds of judgements. We live in a society of laws and laws are clumsy things. In the absence of a clearly defined natural boundary of person-hood, we have to make a judgement and create a (somewhat arbitrary) legal cut-off point. It's not a perfect solution but then, we don't live in a perfect world. I guess I can't adopt the compromise postion that even though it is a "human life", it might be convenient to dispose of it based upon the needs of society. We had some bloke in the 1930sand40s who had some pretty scary ideas about human life and who qualifed. Some decisions must be made based upon morality.
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 209 of 327 (650292)
01-29-2012 7:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 203 by jar
01-29-2012 5:04 PM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
jar writes:
Just to make it more interesting, there are no real boundaries that would apply across the board, which is why a decision such as abortion really needs to be made on an individual by individual basis by those individuals directly involved; the mother, the mother's doctor and then the mothers family. What about the 9 month fetus who is about to be born?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 203 by jar, posted 01-29-2012 5:04 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 211 by jar, posted 01-29-2012 7:43 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 224 by Evlreala, posted 01-31-2012 11:50 PM | | shadow71 has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 210 of 327 (650293)
01-29-2012 7:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 206 by JonF
01-29-2012 5:41 PM
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Re: Disagreement
JonF writes:
I don't know. I don't care. I don't think they take a position. You referred to Planned Parenthood as supporting your statement that "I think all agree that the intent of abortion is to eliminate a human life". They don't support that claim. They make no mention of eliminating any human lives. You don't think they will admit that do you? Do they abort viable fetuses in the womb knowing that if they are not destroyed they will be born as babies? Isn't that elimiinating a human life?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 206 by JonF, posted 01-29-2012 5:41 PM | | JonF has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 217 by JonF, posted 01-30-2012 8:09 AM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: Previous thread/s
Thanks Straggler.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 216 by Straggler, posted 01-30-2012 7:35 AM | | Straggler has not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: Previous thread/s
Straggler writes:
Do you honestly believe that all conceptuses are human lives imbued with souls? Yes.
Straggler writes:
Do you accept that about 60% of all conceptuses end up flushed down the toilet without anyone even realising that any conception had taken place? The majority of conceptuses never implant in the uterus I have read your links so that is part of the natural process.
Straggler writes:
Do you agree that if the church really wants to save human lives and genuinely believes that human life starts at the "point" of conception they should focus on research into this majority of conceptuses rather than get too riled up about the comparatively tiny amount that get intentionally aborted? I don't think the church is involved in the science itself. But I am sure the church, if it was possible, would love to change those numbers. But again it appears to be a natual process.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 200 by Straggler, posted 01-29-2012 3:15 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 226 of 327 (650612)
02-01-2012 11:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 224 by Evlreala
01-31-2012 11:50 PM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Evlreala writes:
To be fair, at 9 months if it's still a fetus and is about to be born the question of abortion has long sense not been an issue... You still have the issue of Intact dilation and extraction or partial birth abortion at 9 months. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 224 by Evlreala, posted 01-31-2012 11:50 PM | | Evlreala has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 271 by Meddle, posted 02-02-2012 9:09 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 227 of 327 (650615)
02-01-2012 12:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 222 by Kairyu
01-30-2012 6:35 PM
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Re: Previous thread/s
WSW24 writes:
I'm a bit uneasy on abortion myself, but even then the contrast between the pro-life picture of God loathing abortion, and the uncaring processes of nature are a bit glaring. Even aside from the topic of abortion the zygote death rate is a huge difficulty in determining life as ''it has a soul, so it's life'' terms in the Christian context. How do you harmonize all of this? I also have a difficult time accepting the loss of zygotes per the articles, but I believe there are some phenomen that the human beings will never know and that in my opinion is God's will. My prayer is that those zygots are in a better place. Once again I stress that I believe the soul comes into being at the beginning of life, but of course, I can't prove that. That is God's will not ours to know. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 222 by Kairyu, posted 01-30-2012 6:35 PM | | Kairyu has not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Granny Magda writes:
Anyway, Godwin's Law applies. You mentioned Hitler, thus you lose. Not familar with that law, but I don't think it a good idea to forget or never mention Hilter.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 258 by Granny Magda, posted 02-02-2012 1:34 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 230 of 327 (650620)
02-01-2012 12:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 214 by bluegenes
01-29-2012 9:20 PM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
bluegenes writes:
She wrote an opinion piece for a non-scientific publication in which she claims, quite literally, that a zygote is a human being. Read the article.There is nothing scientific in it that actually supports her view. A zygote is not a human being by definition, just as an acorn is not an oak tree by definition. Where may I find that definition? She took the definiton of organism from a dictionary. p6. An organism is defined as (1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.22 In the paper she explains why the sperm and egg prior to fusion is devoted to the actual fusion. After the fusion the zygote intitates a program of development that will become through formation, excluding accident, or external intervention, that will form a body, birth and all the human being development such as childhood, adolescencem maturity, aging and death. That is a scientific explanation.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 214 by bluegenes, posted 01-29-2012 9:20 PM | | bluegenes has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 231 of 327 (650622)
02-01-2012 12:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 221 by Straggler
01-30-2012 6:25 PM
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Re: "Human Life"
Straggler writes:
Do you accept that natural abortions are the biggest killer of "human life" known to man? If so - What do you suggest we do about his tragic majority? Anything at all? I have read the paper and I cannot dispute it. I hope science is working on a remedy, if in fact there can be a remedy, but I don't see how that justifies an intentional abortion.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 221 by Straggler, posted 01-30-2012 6:25 PM | | Straggler has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 245 by Straggler, posted 02-02-2012 8:27 AM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 234 of 327 (650625)
02-01-2012 12:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 223 by Meddle
01-31-2012 6:17 PM
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Malcolm writes:
The only difference is in the way the genes in those cells are expressed, but here again she tries to equivocate by suggesting that the cells in the developing embryo are working towards some grand plan to produce a mature human body. But what is really happening is as the cells multiply they interact with their neighbours, causing variation in their gene expression and altering the trajectory of their daughter cells into gradually more specific tissue types. It just so happens that these local interactions lead to an adult human. Have you ever seen a zygote as defined in her paper develop into any organism except a human being? So I don't agree that "It just so happens that these local interactions lead to an adult human."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 223 by Meddle, posted 01-31-2012 6:17 PM | | Meddle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 244 by Meddle, posted 02-01-2012 9:27 PM | | shadow71 has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: So what was the point of this thread?
bluegenes writes:
I explained that if an "X" can potentially become a "Y" through a process of transformation, the "X" is not a "Y" until the transformation has taken place. When does a human being become a human being in your mind? I would also like to see some support for your opinion. I like the "I explained" part of your answer. Once you say it I guess all dialogue stops and the omniscient one has spoken the truth? Get a life.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 235 by bluegenes, posted 02-01-2012 2:02 PM | | bluegenes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 241 by jar, posted 02-01-2012 7:51 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 243 by bluegenes, posted 02-01-2012 8:12 PM | | shadow71 has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: Previous thread/s
Juvenile replies will not be responded to.
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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juvenile posts
juvenile posts will not be responded to.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 237 by Perdition, posted 02-01-2012 4:47 PM | | Perdition has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 251 by Perdition, posted 02-02-2012 12:17 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 273 of 327 (650945)
02-03-2012 3:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 229 by Straggler
02-01-2012 12:11 PM
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Re: Occupy Reality - We Are The 40 Percent.....
Staggler writes:
Occupy Reality - We Are The 40 Percent..... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If 60 percent of human souls ends up in a better place as part of God’s will without ever having physically existed as anything more than a few cells or having any comprehension of physical existence one has to wonder what the point of the other 40 percent of us is. I am the 40%..... Good question. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 229 by Straggler, posted 02-01-2012 12:11 PM | | Straggler has not replied |
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