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Author | Topic: Have You Ever Read Ephesians? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Furthermore, I think phrases like 'He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world' show something above and beyond our daily experience, but perhaps bearing on our 'future' behavior, c.f. Eph 2:10, 'For we are His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works...' I might add that walking "In Christ" means walking "In the Spirit" and that future promise of such a result can only be enhance through present behavior. In other words, focus on the present communion in order to also hope and abide in a future communion.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
NIV writes: 5:1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person-such a man is an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. |
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Purpledawn writes: This debate is about Ephesians and Ephesians was either written by Paul or by another. I have presented the idea that it is written by another as a summary of Paul's theology. To me, the issue is largely irrelevant. The real author of canon is and should be the Holy Spirit. Jaywill argues, and I agree with the argument supporting Pauls authorship, but I would not be too upset if the authorship could be otherwise proved. PD writes: I agree, and would suggest that even a ghost author would be led by the same Holy Ghost Paul knew...the One that knocked him off his high horse when he was known as Saul. The authentic letters are written to specific groups and dealing with specific issues that concern that group. Paul presents his arguments to back up his instruction. Ephesians doesn't seem to provide the in-depth arguments that Paul does. I would say the arguments for what is being said in Ephesians can be found within Paul's letters. Critical analysis by definition wont accept a Holy Spirit author nor authority. To be fair, they would ask us how we could even tell what is or is not of the Holy Spirit, and how would you be able to explain it to them?
Jazzns writes: And given that question, I myself would ask God directly...through prayer. People should choose what to listen to as instruction for daily living--be it their own logic, reason, reality, and/or belief.
If what you are claiming is that we should use this book as instruction to live by due to its authority imbued by God then I will question why God would use a vehicle with such uncertainty surrounding its origins for that purpose. PD writes: I think that a universal church includes members who recognize the Holy Spirit and who accept Jesus Christ into their hearts. All of the rest is simply human wisdom and interpretation of manmade religion. But lets get back to Ephesians, shall we?
I think a debate over the Universal Church Theory would be off track this thread. You can ask Phat. NIV writes: Eph 5:1-6:1-- Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person-such a man is an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." 15 Be very careful, then, how you live-not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. This labor of love is made possible by Grace.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jaywill writes: Yes im here...on and off. Ive been working a lot lately. are you a Trinitarian or a Oneness Pentecostal? Reason I ask is to ask if you see any distinction between God the Father and Jesus Christ? This I would say, that the pre-incarnated Christ is certainly God. The Christ after the incarnation, death and resurrection is the Firstborn from the dead. Christ is Head over all things before His earthly sojourn as God.Christ is Head over all things after resurrection as God-Man. Please comment on this.Jazzns may comment if he has a comment. Phat, are you still there ? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
richh writes: Assuming that Jesus existed before Lucifer, God had a solution before Lucifer even chose to become a problem. The reason that Lucifer was even allowed to fall and become satan is so that humanity would have a temptor. Tempering something makes it stronger. Tempering ironb makes it steel. Tempting humans causes them to become responsible.,..In Christ...and resist the temptation. (or they can try it on their own and see if human wisdom can eliminate the need for God....but I have an argument there...based on my belief. ) To start, the word anakephalaiosasthai in Greek, translated 'to head up', has the prefix 'ana', meaning 'again'. I think that is sweet. At one time all things were all 'headed up' in Christ, then something happened in the universe and things got out of whack, but eventually all things in the heavens and on the earth will again be 'headed up' in Christ. Paul notes this to be the destination - 'Unto the economy of the fullness of the times', God's destination Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jazzns writes: If you choose accept as premises or apology: 1. That the whole Bible is a unified accord of faith2. That therefore Jesus himself is responsible for the sentiments in the Hebrew Old Testament. 3. That there is clear instruction for a man to have authority over his wife in these writings. Then your point is taken that Paul in Ephesians 5 is supported by Jesus. My only comment after my epic surrender will be that in order to gain this concordance, to have to accept as valuable the fictional horrors of the Old Testament, you lose any credibility to maintain Christianity as a source of actual truth or enduring morality. Hey, I surrender too! I think that it is a beautiful thing...some of the discussions we have here at EvC. It is a communion of sorts. Iron sharpens iron and all that. I cant say that I fully understand the will of God in my life, though it is getting clearer and/or I am doing better than I did 5 years ago. I dont believe that the Bible is to be taken at word for word value, though I believe that the Spirit who loves me and gives me wisdom is the living word. I believe that the book itself is not powerful, alive, or useful in and of itself...as a printed medium of words and ideas. I DO believe that when we humans come together to study and reason together, the truth becomes alive within us. Now...where oh where were we with Ephesians? Was the book written by God or by man? What about other books of the Bible? Is the Bible a more useful source (or in fact the only source of wisdom from the Holy Spirit? Given that a person knows Jesus (and/or the Holy Spirit) will there then be agreement among those of us who "have an ear to hear" the truth? What is truth? Is this living word found anywhere else than the Bible? How does one differentiate between opinions and truths?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I agree with Richh, even though his cut and paste may have been an editorial. Words and ideas have meaning...and the meaning that i get from reading scripture is that...even though as jar says...Paul may have been starting a franchise and that it was a human reaction to the barbarism of those times---I disagree that civilized man can even hold a candle to the conversation, motive, and above all love found in NT scripture. But why should I argue? It only makes me look arrogant as well...thus I feel that I am basically through talking about Ephesians unless anyone has any questions relating to the scripture itself. Opinions and intellect are examples of "private" interpretation of reality and are unprofitable to me at this time.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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