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Author | Topic: UK's Thatcher, rot in hell . . . | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
But I do not believe that those of you who post as you have are controlling the dialog and debate from the left. I see way too much pure hatred; the values that many on the left pay lip service to are in sharp contrast to what they actually say and do. I think we should oppose the extremism on both sides, but I see far less of that for the left than for the right. What's funny is that I have the precisely opposite sense. I suspect that it's simply a matter of extreme opinions attracting attention, particularly in the media. The conservatives I know in person are by a vast majority not the mouth-frothing extremist types, but I see a lot of extreme right BS in the media and on the web. I expect you see extreme left views in the media and on the web, and yet the large majority of liberals you know in person are not hate-spewing assholes. Extreme opinions get ratings on TV, between the people who agree and the people who disagree, much like Howard Stern attracts listeners who both love and despise him. And extreme words are more memorable. Hell, those with extreme views are the most likely ones to say anything at all where anyone else would hear, because the more moderate majority usually just won't say anything at all.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3992 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.5 |
...and that's a sentiment certainly cut from good Republican cloth.
Coyote writes: I think we should oppose the extremism on both sides, but I see far less of that for the left than for the right. While I draw a line at advocating violence, I have considerable tolerance for intemperate speech: it reveals the nature of my foes and the passion of my allies. I suspect that dronester does not consider himself a liberal, even though conservatives use the label "liberal" for anyone to the left of Genghis Khan. While the Democratic congressional caucus contains a spectrum that ranges from near-Republicans to nearly-frank socialists, moderate Republicans have been hounded from the GOP by other Republicans. It is true that the right periodically offers up a black figure who speaks of the "liberal plantation" and "blacks...who slavishly follow the liberal line." Apparently, they have no idea how deeply offensive this rhetoric is. These transient figures gain considerable traction with a GOP base which feels that slavery has gotten a bum rap, but invariably implode because they simply do not represent the views of most Americans. They are certainly harshly criticized and quickly become electorally irrelevant because of their views: is that what you mean by "destroyed"? While elevating Reagan to political sainthood, the GOP has fallen far from one of his shrewdest political ideas: that the GOP should be a "big tent." He first espoused this in the 60s--just as the GOP began to implement the Southern strategy, using southern resentment of the civil rights movement to flip Democratic voters. The lack of tolerance on the right has become so extreme that the GOP now commands a single demographic: aging white men, generally of southern birth. Liberals didn't do this to conservatives; it is a self-inflicted wound. Given your claims, you should have no difficulty providing a list of conservative political leaders who have opposed hateful right wing rhetoric. For example, there must have been a clamorous chorus on the right denouncing the rabid birthers and their racial animus from the beginning. Conservative outrage over sly insinuations of a "2nd Amendment solution" to the Obama presidency was doubtlessly full throated. I missed all that. Perhaps you can help. NB: Dick Gregory's remarks on "a liberal scorned" were made from a perspective that, like dronester's, is well to the left of liberalism. He's also a nutrition kook and conspiracy monger (moon landings faked, 9/11 Truther), but those particular follies do seem to cross party lines. Full Disclosure: I worked as a volunteer during his 1968 campaign. "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Most of us on the liberal left are capable of a more nuanced approach than simply hating a democratically elected political leader and behaving like a badly bought up child when she dies. That sort of thing is reserved for the extremes of all parties.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Drosophilla Member (Idle past 3672 days) Posts: 172 From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK Joined:
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Most of us on the liberal left are capable of a more nuanced approach than simply hating a democratically elected political leader and behaving like a badly bought up child when she dies. That sort of thing is reserved for the extremes of all parties. Most of us on the liberal left are capable of a more nuanced approach than simply hating a democratically elected political leader and behaving like a badly bought up child when she dies. That sort of thing is reserved for the extremes of all parties. I agree Tangle. The time to 'drink champagne in the streets' was actually 28 November 1990 when Thatcher left office and was no more in charge of UK politics. To celebrate by 'drinking champagne' at the actual death of a person who had recently undergone very poor health and for a number of years suffered mental degradation, is frankly socially disgusting. It amazed and appalled me to read that two of the main instigators of the 'champagne celebrations' are in fact UK school teachers (one of who was so young in 1990 that I doubt she had been weaned!). Teachers are the (so-called) guardian of our children's spiritual and moral well-being - when teachers start playing this hate game we are utterly doomed............ Post of the month has to go to Rahvin for the perfect example of harmonious give and take.......and it's by no means easy.....
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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The level of hate directed toward anyone who does not remain on the liberal plantation, and kowtow to liberal expectations, is simply amazing. And very informative. As stated in #1 above, "Liberals are skeptical of censorship and celebrate free and open debate." In fact, the exact opposite is the case. As an example, any Blacks who don't slavishly follow the liberal line are attacked unmercifully, and destroyed as quickly as possible as a lesson to others, and lest their ideas spread. "Attacked and destroyed"? Are we talking lynching here? Oh, no wait, what you mean is that if a black conservative says something dumb, he's called on it just the same as he would be if he was white. That is free and open debate. Really, this is such a stupid shibboleth of the right that I'm mildly surprised to see you touting it: "Disagreeing with me takes away my freedom of speech, so if you believed in free and open debate you'd shut up." Meanwhile, it does not take away liberals' freedom of speech for conservatives to disagree with them, because stupidity is never so delicious as when it comes served with a side-order of hypocrisy.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dronester writes:
Your interests give you the right to an opinion, nothing else. You can try to convince others of what their own best interests are but it's futile to tell them that their choice is wrong or their choice should "rot in hell".
But, if their best interests intersect my best interests, there seems to be a problem. dronester writes:
You may have to run for office yourself.
I never have persuaded a person from voting lesser evil. If you know a way, please enlighten me.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
None the less, that is the democratic process. It's intended to satisfy the maximum number of people. The magic number "fifty per cent plus one" is arbitrary and meaningless.
My point would be that no-one (strictly speaking) voted for Thatcher at all, and only a minority voted for her party. Dr adequate writes:
I don't know about the UK but in Canada a minority government is often considered by the "winning" party to be a crushing defeat. It often makes for better government, though. It encourages radical practices such as "cooperation between parties".
Indeed, if one of the American parties got as small a proportion of the vote as the Conservatives did, it would be considered a crushing defeat.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
None the less, that is the democratic process. It's intended to satisfy the maximum number of people. Well, it didn't.
I don't know about the UK but in Canada a minority government is often considered by the "winning" party to be a crushing defeat. Well it wasn't a "minority government" 'cos of the stupid electoral system, and so it was considered a triumphant victory and a good reason to impose an ideology that most people didn't actually agree with enough to vote for it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
Personal satisfaction is a volatile and fickle thing. Unfortunately, most ballots don't have an option for "reverse the result of the election if I change my mind later on".
ringo writes:
Well, it didn't. None the less, that is the democratic process. It's intended to satisfy the maximum number of people.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Dr Adequate writes: Well it wasn't a "minority government" 'cos of the stupid electoral system, and so it was considered a triumphant victory and a good reason to impose an ideology that most people didn't actually agree with enough to vote for it. Well, they did vote her in 3 times and is the longest serving Prime Minister in the 20th century. That takes some explaining.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Well, they did vote her in ... Who voted her in? Oh, right, a minority. This should have made her feel a little humility if that was an emotion of which she was capable.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
Sour grapes make good whine.
Who voted her in? Oh, right, a minority.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Personal satisfaction is a volatile and fickle thing. Unfortunately, most ballots don't have an option for "reverse the result of the election if I change my mind later on". But this is irrelevant to my point. My point is that her election did not satisfy the majority of voters at the point when they went into the voting booths and voted. The last time she was elected (and she wasn't, her party was) it was by a thumping great 42% of the electorate. If an American Presidential candidate got that proportion of the vote, would he claim a mandate for sweeping reform? No, he wouldn't, because for one thing he'd have lost the election.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Sour grapes make good whine. You should look up the meaning of the term "sour grapes" before using it again. It does not mean what you think it means.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Dr Adwquate writes: Oh, right, a minority. It's a democracy; it appears that those that wanted her out couldn't persuade enough others to do anything about it. If she really was that awful, it's odd that so many didn't care enough to vote her out. The first time may have been put down to a mistake, the second absentmindedness, but a third? A simpler conclusion is that she was what the country wanted - regardless of our opinions, the war and the voting system.
This should have made her feel a little humility if that was an emotion of which she was capable. People rarely elect leaders for their humility and certainly not Thatcher, you can't claim she was falsely representing herself - not three times and not her - she was wiziwig.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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