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Author | Topic: Why the Flood Never Happened | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I NEVER SAID IT WAS A FAULT LINE. IF FAULT LINES DON'T RUN EAST-WEST THEN IT WASN'T A FAULT LINE AND I NEVER SAID IT WAS ANYWAY. THE IDEA IS THAT IT WAS CRACKS THAT FORMED EAST-WEST BECAUSE THAT PARALLELS THE MOUNDED PART OF THE UPLIFT,. A fault is a crack that relieves stress in the earths crust. Your crack is described as relieving the stress from uplift, ergo it is a fault by definition. The fact remains that cracks that relieve the stress of uplift are observed in the north-south orientation not in an east-west orientation. The fact remains that the evidence is counter to your fantasy in this as in so many other ways. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If water can flow underground, canyons can be cut underground. I'd expect it to have occurred in the last stages of the Flood myself Fascinating: how do they make the filled v-shaped channels with all the tributaries but no tunnels? Why is there no erosion of the overlying strata? Even when it is softer rock?
... The Grand Canyon as far as I know exposes the strata to a greater depth than any other location on earth, and that's why creationists are interested in it. No Faith, it is because they know that if they cannot make up some fantasy to explain it that their YEC concept is falsified. That is why you spend so much time on making up fantasies to explain the evidence (to yourself -- it doesn't fool us). by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... but thats mainly because i have faith in human intelligence. I lost that when schrubbia was re-elected. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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1) I KNOW there was a worldwide Flood, most likely about 4350 years ago but not much longer in any case, there is never going to be any doubt about that. Except for anyone with an open mind that looks at the evidence. You have two possibilities where you can consider this a valid argument:
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The glaciers also didn't exist before the Flood but formed afterward. And disappeared and formed again and disappeared ... how many times Faith? Do you have a clue how many ice ages have existed? And then there is the glacial erosion of the mountains ... Yosemite here we come. And those glaciers must have moved around like tectonic plates on warp drive. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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You are trying to make us believe, as you obviously do, that all those fossils in stratified rock are the same age, that is, 4,350 years ago, and are attributable to the biblical flood. More to the point they all would have had to be living when the flood started ... the earth would have been neck-deep in organisms crawling over each other ... by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Where would you expect to see tunnels? Because if you are going to carve rivers there needs to be a path for them to flow while carrying sediment.
Why should v shaped channels be a problem. Because v-shaped channels are made by slow erosion with side failures. Kind of difficult when the channel is filled.
Again, the dimensions of this supposed canyon have never been given here. Do you have them? How deep, long, wide is it? And what sediment{?} is it carved into? And what sediment(s) filled it? You'd have to ask Glenn Morton.*
No, I'm not lying, I know nothing about the other canyons so why should you assume I can't answer them too? The GC is of interest to creationists because of the great depth of exposed strata, as I said before you called me a liar. I didn't say you were lying I said you were making up fantasies so you can pretend you have an explanation. Lying would be when you know it is a false statement and you make it with the intention to deceive. You have the same problem with sediment transport with the buried rivers in the Grand Canyon -- for the flood to magically do this while buried you need to be able to carry the eroded material away, so there should be tunnels to accomplish this ... and then have some mechanism to follow behind and fill these channels with the same material that overlies the sides of the channels. Without forming a boundary with those materials over the channel. Edited by RAZD, : * spl nameby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The MOUND determines the direction of the cracks ... Stress determines the general location of structural failure, and by observing where cracks are, what the materials are and how much the material on each side of the failure has moved one can calculate the stress that was involved. If the stress is insufficient to cause failure then the material would not crack. Cracking does not always occur when there is (insufficient) stress. There is a much larger ridge than your "mound" running north-south at the east end of the canyon ... and we see fault lines there ... crossing the canyon. There is also a much larger rise than your "mound" of the plateau at the west end of the canyon ... and we see fault lines there. ... crossing the canyon. We also see erosion along fault lines in some places, but we can still identify the fault lines when this occurs. There are no observed fault lines along the meandering path of the canyon, none.
Butte Fault quote: Notice the lack of meanders along the fault line. Notice the vertical orientation of the (gray and red) rock layers just to the right of the fault line at the bottom of the picture. So why is there no river channel here, even if the canyon is not here, there still should have been massive concurrent river type erosion similar to the canyon here yes?
Grand Canyon Faults quote: So how did those layers bend without cracking Faith? You claim that because there is a "mound" that there must be cracking ... here we have a mound and no cracking ... within the same geological formations as the Grand Canyon. Why are there no cracks in those bent layers? Whatever fantasy you make up to explain this also can be used to say that the "mound" you claim cracked to make the Grand Canyon did not in fact need to be cracked.
Bright Angel Fault quote: Notice the straight line for this canyon that actually follows an actual fault line that actually did open up due to tectonic stress, and that the fault line extends beyond the canyon, and that it is dry ... with no sign of river channel erosion.
... We do not see fault lines forming the path of the Colorado River anywhere along the river location. Objectively looking at the evidence, there is no reason to conclude that mounding caused cracking along the entire meandering path of the Grand Canyon and that this caused the canyon to be located where it happens to be. Edited by RAZD, : ...by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I DO NOT DEAL WITH RADIOMETRIC DATING AND DO NOT CONSIDER IT EVIDENCE ANYWAY, BECAUSE THE METHOD CANNOT BE VERIFIED. PAY ATTENTION. Curiously it has been validated by several independent methods. The real reason you don't deal with it is because you cannot make up an explanation for the consilience of data that show consistent result from different systems, so to protect your fantasy you need to reject it. Cognitive dissonance predicts this behavior. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... how the water got up into those elevated cracks. If someone actually understands your scenario then I hope they explain it, ... If we start with the flood being above the purported cracks, then this is not a problem getting water into the purported disappearing cracks. The larger problem is how this generates massive currents to carve them out when water flows most at the top and least at the bottom: drain a dammed reservoir and all the sediment that settled to the bottom is still there. Glenn Canyon is not carved by draining the purported Lake Austin ... by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
* the cracks run east - west --- but when shown that the stress cracks run north to south in the entire area; you should abandon that argument. IIRC she once said that all the river canyons in this cross-section
Were east-west cracks that all became canyons. Or something like that. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The cracks I'm talking about OCCURRED IN THE UPPERMOST STRATA A MILE DEEP ABOVE THE CURRENT RIM OF THE GRAND CANYON. THOSE CRACKS NO LONGER EXIST. THEY WERE INSTRUMENTAL IN BREAKING UP THE STRATA WHICH ALL WASHED AWAY, ... In which case they could have been in any direction, and you cannot know that they were east-west because they all washed away. Curiously this is why we know you are making stuff up, because you claim something that leaves no evidence for your claim in any way.
... AND I THINK ALSO INSTRUMENTAL IN ADMITTING THE WATER WHICH WOULD HAVE CARVED THE CANYON. ... Curiously water does not carve canyons at the bottoms of reservoirs, rather it fills them with sediments over time, and when you drain a reservoir that sediment is left behind. This is why draining a big lake would not carve Glenn Canyon.
IN ANY CASE THERE IS NO LONGER ANY EVIDENCE OF THEM TO BE FOUND, EXCEPT IN THE GRAND STAIRCASE AREA WHERE THAT HIGHER LEVEL OF STRATA DIDN'T ALL GET WASHED AWAY AND IN WHICH YOU CAN SEE THE RESULTS OF EAST-WEST CRACKS TO THIS DAY. As has been pointed out, the "Grand Staircase" is composed of formations that run in many directions. Even that idealized section shows them curving around So where are those results of east-west cracks again? The river channels? And why aren't those other river channels as deep as the Grand Canyon if they were caused by the same process?
There is no point in trying to compare them to existing faults. Yes, there is not point in discussing actual cracks in rocks when discussing cracks in rocks because if you discuss actual cracks and actual rock cracking behavior then you cannot discuss made up cracks and made up crack behavior that is different. Curious that these actual cracks penetrate below those east-west cracks that all got washed away, and yet they didn't also cause the water to penetrate and carve canyons in those locations. Curious that there is one fault that was buried by layers of sediment and then reactivated to cause those layers to bend ("mound" in faith talk) without cracking and without canyon formation. But all tectonic action occurred after the layers were laid down, so how does this buried fault come to be? Or is this another instance of your supergroup tumbling underground fantasy?
There is no point in trying to compare them to existing faults. They are the evidence of cracks in rocks, Faith: that is what faults ARE - places where rock has cracked. Ignoring evidence is not refutation. Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I think I can say, however, that the animals may not have had "homes" to "get back to" after the Flood but simply dispersed in all directions, even to great distances. The whole climate is supposed to have changed rather dramatically so whatever "home" had been would probably have been unrecognizable anyway. If the continental plates didn't start moving immediately then there must have been enough time for them to disperse to those great distances, including into the areas that became the new continents that were moving away from the original. So why are koala bears and the eucalyptus trees they feed on only exist in Australia? How did they get there? This is just one example of a species that consumes limited food sources that only exist in one place. Why are there no placental animals in Australia? Why are there no rabbits or dogs in Australia until after they were brought there by man and are now considered invasive and destructive species because they are so well adapted to living there? Why do species exhibit biogeographical distributions around the world? Especially species isolated on islands but not found on mainlands. Why did lamas only exist in South America before being introduced by man to other locations? They are perfectly capable of living in North America and Europe and grazing on the grasses that are native to those areas. What kept them from going there? Why are species that occupy similar ecologies different in different geographical locations? Why are wolverines and polar bears only found in northern latitudes and not found in similar southern latitudes? Why are Penguins found in southern latitudes and not in norther latitudes? Why are Puffins found in northern latitudes and not in southern latitudes? Alfred Russel Wallace - Wikipedia
quote: How did these species sort themselves on one side or the other of this divide? Again we have an instance where the evidence shows evolution of species over long time periods in a consistent intellectually consilient manner but one that is not to be expected from random dispersal of animals from a single point some 4,500 (or whatever time you chose) years ago -- a pattern that matches the fossil record buried before the flood? Are those fossils that were magically sorted not only in depth but in geographical locations some kind of mystical magnet that draws the living species to their locations even though ...
... The whole climate is supposed to have changed rather dramatically so whatever "home" had been would probably have been unrecognizable anyway. ... Why are some species geographically localized when there are similar habitats in other places Faith? Places they inhabit in quite happily once introduced. Certainly there are some species that have spread out across the globe -- what holds the others back and how did they get where they are? by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Nice. Where is this buried fault, do you have a reference. Faults - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
quote: This monocline is (of course) responsible for the north-south "mound" uplift at the eastern end of the canyon. Here is a construction of the geological column in the area:
This gives us evidence of the previous layers that overlaid the Grand Canyon area and caused the sedimentary deposits to lithify. Then there is this nonsense: Folded rock layers point to Noah’s flood | Creation Faith Facts
quote: Notice that the right side picture is from somewhere else. Notice the layers in the Tapeets sandstone (left picture) ... how did those layers stay so well defined when they were bent if still wet at the time? Curiously you can test, rather than dismiss with incredulity, and the buried fault line shows their argument to be fantasy speculation. Edited by RAZD, : + Edited by RAZD, : + Edited by RAZD, : +by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Well, that can't be determined when they're being misunderstood, and they've definitely been misunderstood, and I think I contributed to that problem last time I answered HBD. Misunderstood, misrepresented, twisted in the most unbelievable ways. But it doesn't matter what you meant Faith.
Message 10: It doesn't matter what Gould or any others themselves meant, if what they said has implications for creationist views that's a perfectly valid way to use their quotes. All that matters is how we interpret what you said, right? Or are you being disingenuous here ...
Message 13: Misrepresentation isn't the point in this case, the point is only that some things they said can be shown to point to different conclusions than theirs. I don't see that Eliyahu claimed they meant what he got iout of them anyway. This is an entirely different situation. But I'm not following this thread, I just thought it was illogical to claim somebody's observation can't be used for a different purpose than it was intended. In the case of the other thread I HAVE been misrepresented and I don't think anybody has ever fairly and honestly recognized the point I've been making. And what I've said isn't being used for any other conclusion, it's just being misrepresented in such a garbled way it makes no sense. The conclusion Faith is that your fantasy just doesn't work, it doesn't add up, it doesn't explain the evidence and it is self contradictory.
But this is typical, what you've said, just not getting the point in either case. Bad logic, bad thinking. Typical./ So you agree that the intended meaning is important and that misrepresenting what a person means is a bad thing, a dishonest thing, an inappropriate thing? Edited by RAZD, : :by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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