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Author Topic:   What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You?
Phat
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Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
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Message 1 of 339 (721765)
03-12-2014 1:16 AM


Having been at EvC forum since 2004, (or thereabouts) I have found that my time here has been a learning experience in some ways, and a soapbox to attempt to teach others. On the one hand, I have been exposed to dialogue with some very intelligent people. On the other, I have tried time and time again to show why my belief is not in vain. My question to myself---as well as those of you who choose to dialogue with me in this topic----is whether my critical thinking skills have improved here at EvC or whether I have, in fact, merely confirmed that I am still (and forever more) a dogmatic Christian believer.
I also ask all of you what critical thinking means to you and whether or not your basic beliefs have changed since you came to this forum.
Faith & Belief?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 14 of 339 (721841)
03-12-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Stile
03-12-2014 1:17 PM


Re: Critical Thinking
NoNukes writes:
I think critical thinking simply means examining the reason for your beliefs as well as examining your perceptions. Since our perceptions are colored by our experiences and prior adopted beliefs, challenging the evidence is simply not enough.
Good point.
Stile writes:
I understand trying to show others what your belief is and how you arrived there. That's one thing.
But trying to show others that your belief is not in vain? Why do you care if others think your belief is in vain or not?
If you care because you want "everyone to have peace in their lives" or some other nice thing... then... yay!
If you care because you want the approval of other people... then I don't think you're doing it right. I think that's a counter-productive motivation for such an important belief.
Its not approval that I seek. Its feedback. Bouncing ideas off of others sends the ideas back at me...with a different perception...so that I can reevaluate and search further.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 16 of 339 (721844)
03-12-2014 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate
03-12-2014 2:01 PM


Henry Hazlitt
Dr.Adequate writes:
If critical thinking means anything, it must be defined as a way of thinking, not by the outcome.
Reminds me of what Henry Hazlitt said in 1916
Thinking As A Science writes:
When they think at all, the last thing men think about is their own thoughts. Every sensible man realizes that the perfection of a mechanical instrument depends to some extent upon the perfection of the tools with which it is made. No carpenter would expect a perfectly smooth board after using a dented or chipped plane. No gasolene engine manufacturer would expect to produce a good motor unless he had the best lathes obtainable to help him turn out his product. No watchmaker would expect to construct a perfectly accurate timepiece unless he had the most delicate and accurate tools to turn out the cogs and screws. Before any specialist produces an instrument he thinks of the tools with which he is to produce it. But men reflect continually on the most complex problemsproblems of vital importance to themand expect to obtain satisfactory solutions, without once giving a thought to the manner in which they go about obtaining those solutions; without a thought to their own mind, the tool which produces those solutions. Surely this deserves at least some systematic consideration.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 25 of 339 (721872)
03-13-2014 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by RAZD
03-12-2014 6:31 PM


Re: Confidence vs faith
RAZD writes:
Confidence should never be considered absolute, while faith can be. Faith is more like trust, and it is more of an emotional aspect.
This does not mean that there is no room for faith in critical thinking, just that one should be wary, we can have faith in an assumption that is not tested, based on our core beliefs and knowledge (our worldview), but we should be wary because it is untested.
confidence
quote:
Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced. Joe Klein, Time, 17 May 2004
Emotions+trust can bypass the need for evidence, but it is honest to "be wary". I could honestly agree that I "know" God does not exist--based on Stiles definition, but at the same time honestly say that I believe with all of my being that God does in fact exist.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 37 of 339 (721921)
03-13-2014 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by roxrkool
03-12-2014 9:44 PM


Why Walk Away?
roxrcool writes:
You want to believe what you have always believed and this is your default position. A safe position. Moving beyond what you want to believe is not something you are actively seeking, but you are curious and keep picking at it a tiny bit at a time.
Allow me to use an analogy of falling in love with a woman. One day you meet this woman. You really feel attracted to her and want to go deeper. Soon, you find that your love for her is not merely physical...you fear that you may have fallen for her. Your critical thinking skills jump into play, as they are your best defense against irrational decisions.
  • You consider her personality. You consider her family, and how you relate to them. You consider any annoying habits she may have. In your research, you find some problems about her, yet you are afraid to let her go and you pray (or hope) that she never lets you go. You want to believe that she is the right one for you. You even find, after a time, that you cant stand being away from her.
    With God (or faith in an established belief) a similar scenario can develop. You believe--one day--that you have met God. There is no physical evidence for this, of course, and if you are a good critical thinker you will ignore confirmation bias coming from others...but you find that,irrational as it may be, you talk to what appears to be nothing. Empty space. Nobody in the room. You have fallen for this. You have a choice whether to break away or become more and more involved. Though curious, you get enough from your belief (what some would call a delusion) that you continue in it. For you it is not an it. It is God.----this is my description of what a believer may go through. As for me personally, that story is a bit longer and I may share it (My Belief Statement) sometime.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18348
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 39 of 339 (721925)
    03-13-2014 1:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
    03-13-2014 12:56 PM


    Re: Why Walk Away?
    What makes you think that I need evidence that God exists?
    CSI writes:
    In his classic Invitation to Sociology, Peter Berger (1963, 23) states, It can be said that the first wisdom of sociology is this-things are not what they seem. I would alter the wording slightly-things are not always entirely what they seem-and propose it as the first wisdom of critical thinking. The recognition that the world is often not what it seems is perhaps the key feature of the critical thinker’s worldview.
    Despite lack of evidence objectively, I had enough subjective confirmation to believe.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18348
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 50 of 339 (721962)
    03-14-2014 3:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 46 by Taq
    03-13-2014 5:57 PM


    Taq writes:
    I think the underlying question in this thread is whether or not subjective experiences are a valid way to confirm anything.
    After having a few subjective experiences, I no longer doubt that God exists...though I continually question. I admit to a degree of confirmation bias, for I have no desire to challenge my belief. Fortunately, others do so for me...they frame the issues, questions, and doubts.
    Faith writes:
    That would take me back to the two most intense years of my life during which I was reading voraciously about all the religions and occult practices. That led me into "spiritual" experiences of a very intense sort, some beautiful, some scary.
    If you were like me, I only gave validity to my spiritual experiences because they each impacted me above the norm.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18348
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 56 of 339 (721982)
    03-14-2014 11:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 54 by New Cat's Eye
    03-14-2014 9:50 AM


    Psychosis and Hallucinations
    I had what would be described as a hallucination.
    Wiki writes:
    A hallucination is defined as sensory perception in the absence of external stimuli. Hallucinations are different from illusions, or perceptual distortions, which are the misperception of external stimuli.[5] Hallucinations may occur in any of the five senses and take on almost any form, which may include simple sensations (such as lights, colors, tastes, and smells) to experiences such as seeing and interacting with fully formed animals and people, hearing voices, and having complex tactile sensation,
    The thing is, there were others present who also heard the voices. We were praying for a guy when all of a sudden we heard a multitude of voices screaming "the blood! the blood! no, no, not the blood!"
    It so freaked us out that we were all on our faces praying and shaking. Never in my life will I forget that experience. Of course any good critical thinker would at least try and explain it another way than would a fundamentalist, but I thus far have found no other plausible explanations for the event.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18348
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 57 of 339 (721983)
    03-14-2014 11:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 55 by Taq
    03-14-2014 10:38 AM


    Subjective Experiences
    Taq writes:
    Do you consider that to be critical thinking?
    I suppose that by definition I should seek any and all ways to either disprove my initial conclusion or hypothesize another reason...so in that light I would better use critical thinking as an explanation.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18348
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 58 of 339 (721984)
    03-14-2014 11:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
    03-14-2014 4:58 AM


    Evaluating Our Experiences
    Faith writes:
    Most people have spiritual experiences in the context of some kind of spiritual discipline but mine were happening just from reading and thinking intensely about such things.
    I will grant that I had seen charismatic fundamentalists (of which I was a part) ritualize the casting out of demons. I will say that of the events I witnessed, many could be said to be hyper emotional and based on confirmation bias in regards to the reactions of the audience. The event happened away from a controlled setting--at my apartment. The ones present were all believers, so that could influence perception and interpretation, I suppose. James Randi was not present. I will swear, however, that my hair on my arms literally was on end and a static electrical feeling coupled with anxiety was noted. I also recall very vividly that the voices were not coming from any hidden recording device and that they had a sound that could not be reproduced by another human. I am 90% certain that my friends did not trick me.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18348
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 62 of 339 (721988)
    03-14-2014 12:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 60 by New Cat's Eye
    03-14-2014 11:50 AM


    Re: Psychosis and Hallucinations
    delete double post
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18348
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 63 of 339 (721989)
    03-14-2014 12:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 60 by New Cat's Eye
    03-14-2014 11:50 AM


    Re: Psychosis and Hallucinations
    CS writes:
    One time, I was sober, I was woken up in the middle of the night by some deep raspy voice speaking some weird foreign language. After I woke up, I could still hear the voice. It was coming from right above me. I sounded like some demonic spell or something. Like an incantation. Scared the shit out of me.
    I sat up in bed and looked around for the source, but couldn't find one. It eventually stopped talking and that was that.
    I have had a couple of events that are scientifically known as Hypnagogia or Paralyzed Wakefulness. One time I wanted to move but could not. I tried to ask Jesus to help me but couldn't even speak. So I simply willfully thought my prayer/plea. I then woke up. I wont say that Jesus helped me, but I wont deny it either. Thus I will admit to a fondness for confirmation bias, which undoubtedly interferes with my critical thinking on such matters.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18348
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 68 of 339 (721995)
    03-14-2014 12:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
    03-14-2014 12:06 PM


    Psychosis or Spiritual War?
    I dont believe that believers are psychotic, by definition. I can admit that we are more likely to dismiss other explanations apart from our belief, and thus confirmation biased, but I maintain that we are quite sane...though critics may challenge that our belief itself is delusional. I have not found it to be so.
    I do catch myself being quite irrational at times--perhaps dogmatic as well, but I also catch many atheists/agnostics, and unbelievers go out of their way to even consider that God may be one possibility among many.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18348
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 69 of 339 (721996)
    03-14-2014 12:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
    03-14-2014 12:22 PM


    Re: Subjective Experiences
    One mans validity is another mans delusion.
    How do we arrive at consensus on what is valid?

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18348
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 72 of 339 (722000)
    03-14-2014 12:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
    03-14-2014 12:27 PM


    Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
    Faith writes:
    SOMETIMES they could be hallucinations or even fraud of course, but the ones we're discussing here aren't like that.
    At least that is what we have concluded. We can admit to confirmation bias, however. We choose to believe the explanations that we accept. People simply have to experience similar events in order to allow subjective shared experience to be included in the data.

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