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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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ABE: Turns out it was really rather a simple problem caused by people who are aware of the procedures of road-cut blasting not realizing that someone unfamiliar with them would read "holes" as something you see from the front. Right! You didn't know what posters were talking about, so you proceeded to opine away from ignorance rather than looking things up. That is happening all the time. Some of the posters here are true experts their fields, while you are completely unfamiliar with those fields. But you operate from the assumption that you know better than the experts and proceed to opine at length, resisting mightily any attempts to clarify things or to actually learn something. That is why some of these threads run on so long, and follow so many unnecessary rabbit holes into the depths. It is not the fault of posters who are far more patient than you deserve, it is because of your unwillingness to accept anything outside of your pre-conceived beliefs--no matter how well documented, or how much evidence is presented.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I think that's just one of your weird misreadings. Certainly, the post that you were immediately replying to said nothing of the sort.
In the meantime, debris shedding from a topographic high explains things pretty well.
And let us not forget that you were claiming that gravel as evidence for your view before then. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I wasn't responding to something anybody said, but to the diagram itself which shows some of the gravel to be at some distance from the surface of the rock it came from.
I'm still happy to claim it for my view, since it makes sense that the gravel would be transported by abrasion between the rock and the sand and not by mere deposition of sand. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I'm sure that you didn't get the idea out the gravel having to hang in mid-air from the diagrams either.
And the fact that the location of the gravel is hard to account for given your view, and relatively easy given the conventional view makes the gravel evidence against your position. No matter how "happy" you are to claim otherwise.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I wasn't responding to something anybody said, but to the diagram itself which shows some of the gravel to be at some distance from the surface of the rock it came from.
I'm not sure what distance you are talking about, but I'm also not sure how much closer the gravel symbols can be to their source in this diagram which HBD highlighted for you.
I'm still happy to claim it for my view, since it makes sense that the gravel would be transported by abrasion between the rock and the sand and not by mere deposition of sand.
Perhaps then you would also be happy to explain to us, using a schematic, exactly how and where you think this abrasion occurred in such a way as to transport the gravels. What is the pathway of these fragments? Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
The problem is that they (the gravel from the hill which are drawn at some distance from the hill) are being talked about as if they were there before the sand was deposited which would put them in mid-air. But no matter, it's half a joke anyway.
According to the principle of superposition (Steno again), the gravels were there before the sands above them, but after the sands below them. Once again, we see a process of deposition through time while you seem to see a disjointed set of events having little relationship to one another. You appear to be one of those shoppers who picks up a steak from the freezer but have no idea how it got there. One story is just as good as another. Edited by edge, : spelling correction
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 886 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
I'm also not sure how much closer the gravel symbols can be to their source in this diagram which HBD highlighted for you. I didn't highlight that image, Percy must have...but anyway, here is what McKee says about coarse fragments at the base of these hills
quote: From Cambrian History of the GC - pg 122 It is a really poor quality image, but here is plate 3 which show some of the coarse sediment being described above. I spent some time the other day using Google Earth to try and find some of the structures McKee illustrated, but it is just to hard to tell from photos. There are some great 360 degree panoramas though. Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 886 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
According to the principle of superposition (Steno again), the gravels were there before the sands above them, but after the sands below them. Did I not mention somewhere back there that whether Faith excepted the principal of superposition depended on the circumstance? The principal of **erosion --> deposition --> erosion** supersedes principal of superposition. We can't have **erosion --> deposition --> erosion --> deposition --> erosion --> deposition --> erosion** can we?
You appear to be one of those shoppers who picks up a steak from the freezer but have no idea how it got there. Reminds me of Alex the Lion from Madagascar talking about his steak... "Come on, look at this. you won't find any of this in the wild. This is the kind of refined, food-type thing that you do not find in the wild." HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 886 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
As well as I can guess what Faith is imagining is that the whole layer of sand has to be dropped at once. This is the impression I have gotten as well, like strata comes in sheets that are laid down all at once.
I guess this is part of problem that is raised when you don't think any time can pass while the sediment builds up gradually. Even if the general idea is that individual grains are deposited one at a time, the whole thing has to happen so rapidly, that it would appear as being dropped all at once. Imagine 300 - 400 feet of sandstone spread out over a hundred square miles being deposited in a matter of a week or so... HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Interesting article:
Even setting evolution aside, basic geology disproves creationism http://phys.org/...-evolution-basic-geology-creationism.html In the ongoing conflict between science and creationism, evolution is usually a main point of contention. The idea that all life on Earth evolved from a common ancestor is a major problem for creationists. As a geologist, though, I think that the rocks beneath our feet offer even better arguments against creationism. For the creationist model doesn't square with what you can see for yourself. And this has been known since before Darwin wrote a word about evolution. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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JonF Member (Idle past 197 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
His book is well worth a read. I did find one 14C erratum, which he acknowledged and may be fixed by now.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You're all so eager for any claim against the Flood, how pathetic, you'll buy the flimsiest straw man argument. Invent an inadequate Flood and shoot it down. SO easy isn't it? There's no reason the conditions to form that rock wouldn't have been available in the Flood scenario, which includes volcanic and tectonic activity as well as deep burial.
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JonF Member (Idle past 197 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
What's wrong with our scenario?
Yours is far too vague. Details. When and how did the original rocks formed, when and how did they get eroded, When and how did did the get buried deep enough to form metamorphic rock, when and how did they get exposed to the surface, when and how did they get eroded again, when and how did they get buried deep enough to form metamorphic rock, again,and when and how did they get exposed again. We have detailed and physically possible answers to all those questions, and as a bonus those answers fit with everything else we know. You just blow smoke.
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Admin Director Posts: 13042 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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The thread should return to discussing the topic. Recent on-topic discussions were about the faulting that is normally associated with drape folds, and the evidence for the original horizontality (or lack thereof) of sedimentary layers.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
The thread should return to discussing the topic. Recent on-topic discussions were about the faulting that is normally associated with drape folds, ...
I think we were discussing drag folds in the context of faulting. To me, a drape fold is more like and unforced fold related to gravitational settling or compaction. I would consider the types of 'folds' shown in this diagram to be drapes.
If you will notice, the author of this guide does not even refer to them as 'folds' but as 'drapes' or 'bent' layers.
"4. Drape Traps Differential compaction causes drape over reefs and sand bodies and this can form traps. A sandstone or carbonate layer above the bar or reef can be bent in such a way as to have closure, that is, the ability to contain and trap hydrocarbons. The bending is caused by the fact that the reef or sand body does not compress to the same degree as the shales to either side of it. Therefore a topographic high can be propagated upward through the section for quite some distance." (Crain's Petrophysical Handbook | Login Page) I believe that this is what we are seeing when we look at dropstones, for instance, such as this one:
... and the evidence for the original horizontality (or lack thereof) of sedimentary layers.
I think that this is a slam-dunk. Local conditions cause deposition on non-horizontal surfaces. We have provided testimony and diagramatic documentation of this. There is no evidence that the layering occurred before draping of the sediment over the dropstone shown above. If the deformation occurred during some kind of 'intrusive event', as Faith posits, there is no evidence for it. If people want, we can look at the deformation around a salt dome to show what an intrusive event would do to the surrounding rocks.
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