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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes: Prayer is not about begging. It's about turning off your inner Alpha Male for a moment and surrendering to peace, patience, and wisdom. I think you're confusing the sort of prayer you do in quiet moments with the sort of prayer you do when you're entire life is being blown away in a category 5 hurricane.
Granted you don't pray...but what would be your method if you were in a hurricane and the roof suddenly blew off? would you matter of factly and instinctively react or would you freeze...paralyzed by fear? I would do something practical and if I couldn't I get the scotch out and hope for the best. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Another contentless reply. What ARE you talking about?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
KB writes: But that's NOT the point of this thread or of the OP, as I understand it. The point is to help unbelievers understand our perspective. We don't pick and choose the parts that we like about religion or theology, throwing away the rest. Rather, we have become convinced that the Bible is true, and we are captive to the Word of God. Often we become convinced of things that seem to be counterintuitive or that we would not have chosen on our own. If that IS the point, then of course I understand that Faith doesn't actually want her friends to go to hell, but nevertheless she thinks they will. If that's a point you think requires making, well ok. I think it unlikely to carry much weight with her friends but at least it's a coherent intellectual position. It's hardly a difficult point to make or understand. But we've moved on.
But what if it is true? In the case of the doctor, it's obviously very likely to be true - he's acting on ral evidence in the real world. In the case of a hell belief for the majority of all mankind, the argument has progressed on to why it is obviously NOT true or at least not internally consistent within the belief system in question. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Faith writes: It's hopeless, KB. Doesn't matter what a Christian says these days, they in their infinite wisdom are going to judge us morally deficient. It matters what anybody says, I don't discriminate between belief systems. If what you say is blatantly immoral - like condoning the condemnation of the vast majority of all human life on earth to everlasting torture despite no fault of their own (and even because of a fault of their own) - then you'll be judged by me to be morally deficient. And, by the way, the smugness you've often presented at being one of the 'saved' and the glee you've often expressed in informing many of us here of our impending everlasting torment will almost certainly not help you much when your turn comes to discuss matters with your putative maker. Thus it is written.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Faith writes: You're projecting the "smugness" and "glee" I'm absolutely not, you've exposed those emotions more than once. I particularly enjoyed your exclamation "boy are you in for a surprise".
but what does it matter what I say? Interesting remark given we're on a debating site, but you do have a point, what you say very rarely, if ever, actually contains anything that I think matters at all - except in the negative way of pointing out how disgraceful and dangerous fundamental religious beliefs are.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: Logically, God wouldnt particularly want creatures living forever that wanted nothing to do with Him. Er, why not?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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1.6 writes: Trying to do something sodding practical in the face of your roof being blown off. I suppose if soiling your knickers is practical then well played. Well that was helpful. The second half of what I said was hope for the best. ie sometimes there's nothing left to be done. At that time you might as well pray as do anything else; everything is equally useless. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: CS Lewis saw it a little differently. And I see it differently again. So what? He has no more idea about god's thoughts than my cat. (And like, god, my cat doesn't exist). This is typical....
quote: ....t's such bollox, there is virtually no-one like this, life is not binary.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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GDR writes: I think that the point is that ultimately we all choose to yearn for life that is based on unselfish love no matter how bad we are at it, or we succumb to a life that is about is about looking after our own needs and interests above all else But this is just gibberish, as they say here, it's not even wrong. It has no contact with real life, it's a comment from within a weird religious bubble. People are just not like this.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes: What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1? Of course we don't. Life is far, far more complex than that. We are born with predispositions and we're conditioned by the environment and society we find ourselves brought up in. We don't just choose to be either naughty or nice, like a computer programme. Nor do we stay in one format all the time. We're not binary. GDR language here is pure religious babble that bears no resemblance to how we know we work....
quote: '...choose to yearn for a life based on unselfish love' Do me a favour....Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: It would be nice to get some help though. When I was growing up my Dad always had a spare $20.00 bill for me when I needed one. Why can't God be the same way? It's obvious Phat, your dad, his love for you and the $20 bill are real and they exist. What you call God is not real and does not exist. If he did, the $20 bill would have been unnecessary, the sky daddy would have sorted it first because his imaginary love for you is infinite.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes: Thanks for that dose of cynicism! It's not cynicism; it's just the way it is. You know that a cynic is what an idealist calls a realist?
Makes me feel a whole lot better!
Well it should, understanding that there is no arsehole looking down on you threatening the worst torture imaginable just because you got born is rather positive.
You believe that there is no rescuer. And if I give up hope I too can be glad to be in touch with reality, eh? How encouraging! I believe that I'm not drowning so I'm not in need of rescue. As soon as you realise that, it's all fair sailing. Why do you need to give up hope? Just get on with living a good life - it's not a complicated thing, religion has made a mess of your head. If there is a god, just living the best life you can MUST be enough for him - if it's something else then he's not the god you believe in anyway. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: This is all true. The question we had, however, was whether the messenger was, in fact, the point of the message or whether we ourselves were the point of the message. Can we do it without Him? Was that His message all along? 'Do as you would be done by' is all you need to know. That covers it entirely. Stick to that and forget everything else, it's just causing you unnecessary problems. "Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets" (Matthew 7:12 NCV, see also Luke 6:31).Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Stile writes: Unless God has an "undecided" pile? The Catholics got round this problem by inventing purgatory. Even to them it seemed unfair that god would condemn someone forever that hadn't done something truly evil, so they graded sins into venial and mortal. Mortals went straight to everlasting hell but venials got a lighter sentence. So pretty much everyone had to spend a bit of time in purgatory before getting into heaven. Of course the concept of time is a bit tricky here but never mind. There were/are all sorts of ways to limit this purgatory time - buying indulgencies, performing odd rituals and so on. The very best was confessing your sins to a priest, receiving absolution and dying immediately afterwards. That got you straight into heaven. They must have such a lot of fun making this shit up.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: I used to believe that God was able to see the future like He does the past, but after studying people like John Polkinghorne I have come to the conclusion that God relates to us in time as we experience it. Pokinghome has no more information about god than you or I do, when you're reading people like him and Lewis you're simply choosing the god fiction you prefer.
You mean they aren't. No they're not. Atheists are under-represented in US prisons.
quote: Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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