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Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Religion or Science - How do they compare? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Would I feel any different if I were Bagheera or Kaa or more likely a member of the Bandar-log?
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Nothing came up that I recall about God's offering a choice to accept or reject salvation. Of course He does. What you are saying is completely incompatible with Calvinism. Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways. If humans can choose, then their actions have an impact. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I didn't say we can choose. God's offering a choice is not the same thing as people having the natural ability to choose.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Would I feel any different if I were Bagheera or Kaa or more likely a member of the Bandar-log? ' I don't know but I suspect it is most likely the frame of mind of a modern westerner.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: I didn't say we can choose. God's offering a choice is not the same thing as people having the natural ability to choose. When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meanneither more nor less. The question is, said Alice, whether you can make words mean so many different things. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Does saying that God offers us a choice mean the same thing to you as saying that we have the ability to choose? They seem to me to be saying entirely different things, but sometimes I forget I'm at EvC where who knows what anything is likely to mean at any given moment.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: Does saying that God offers us a choice mean the same thing to you as our having the ability to choose? They seem to me to be saying entirely different things, but sometimes I forget I'm at EvC where who knows what anything is likely to mean at any given moment. I'm not just commenting just on that particular quote of yours, it's the entire conversation - it's just such a fantastical work of pure imagination. Quoting Humpty Dumpty from Alice in Wonderland is the nearest I can get to explaining how totally preposterous I find this whole portion of thread is. I can't believe that grown-ups can 'think' this way.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well, I quoted the Bible so you could see that I didn't make it up. All I asked you to do was acknowledge that fact.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Well, I quoted the Bible so you could see that I didn't make it up. All I asked you to do was acknowledge that fact. And I quoted Alice in Wonderland. Do you see the connection?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Does saying that God offers us a choice mean the same thing to you as saying that we have the ability to choose. As a matter of fact, it does. I presume that God's offer does not result in his words returning to him void and without meaning. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
That doesn't make a bit of sense. How can there be a choice where you can't choose? God's offering a choice is not the same thing as people having the natural ability to choose.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Tangle writes: Once again you use process to claim prove the materialist view. Of course it's not the final answer, we've known for a long time that nurture is at least as important as nature. This is what I've been trying to tell you for a long time. Empathy is an evolved trait like all others and is the source of what we call morality. It's a brain function. It's not a voice from god acting on our heart. So can we put all that magical thinking to one side? Yes, humans can have a huge affect on the empathetic tendencies of other humans for better or for worse. My Christian view is that it is our calling as humans to infect the world with that empathetic view. I would also add that it is about that empathetic view encompassing sacrificial love. Your belief is that empathetic view simply evolved with no intelligent impetus. It is my view that it evolved as a result of a intelligence,(God), that created us with the desire that we would freely accept and find joy in that empathetic view.
Tangle writes: It is strictly a matter of belief whether or not God is part of that evolutionary process or not, either as an ongoing participant or as the initiator of the ability to evolve that way in the first place.. In other words your 'god memes' source is empathy and consciuosness - both evolved traits - which allows us to develop into the people we are.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: How can there be a choice where you can't choose? Explain yourself further. Set up a scenario and show that what Faith is proposing involves no real choice.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Yes, I have two baskets of apples. A basket of red apples and a basket of green apples. You can choose whichever you want.
Here is your green apple. "But I am a believer and I choose the red apple." You get a green apple because I chose it for you. NEXT!
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Explain yourself further. Set up a scenario and show that what Faith is proposing involves no real choice. Is that necessary? Is it really too difficult to understand that presenting a choice to a sentient being requires that the chooser be able to pick? And that offering something that cannot really be picked means there was no bona fide offer? Why don't you illustrate that two plus two equals four? Or how about asking Faith to explain the conundrum that she has presented? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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