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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: We read this kind of scripture as written directly to us as it is supposed to be read. Not true Faith, rather that is how the dogma of your cult decided it should be read. BUT, and it is a big but, that is not what the Bible says. You and your cult always deny what is actually written in the Bible and instead create a mythical Bible as you wish it were actually written.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
You read "black" as "white". That's wrong in any context. You see what you want to see instead of what the text says. That isn't even really reading.
Right, we know how to read the Bible, you should learn from us. Faith writes:
It's written to whomever it's written to. To think it's directed at you is hubris. We read this kind of scripture as written directly to us as it is supposed to be read.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Sure Faith, the way to read the Bible is to twist it, to pretend that it says what you want. That’s how we know you aren’t a real Christian.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: I read it as a real cloud and figure it was read that way in the first century too and all the time in between. Whenever I read early interpretations of scripture I don't find anything in them that is culturally different from our readings today. Yes, you read it the way you want to read it. Disegarding the straightforward words of someone talking directly to the people in front of him, you decide that he's talking to you 2,000 years later. Well here's a thing, you’ll know on the 1st October how wrong what you feel and believe is. Correction: it won't change a thing for you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: I can just as easily say that I don't figure it was read that way.
I read it as a real cloud and figure it was read that way in the first century too and all the time in between.Faith writes:
But that is exactly what your are doing Faith. You are using a 21st century understanding of language and its use, to understand what was written to audiences 2 to 3 thousnd years ago. I suspect this is in fact a modern prejudice being imposed on the text.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Right, we know how to read the Bible, you should learn from us. We read this kind of scripture as written directly to us as it is supposed to be read. But as I said, believe what you want. Sure. Let's check back here on October 1st. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That is ridiculous, GDR, in fact there are other places where cloud is taken symbolically. You really think all the theologians that support my point of view are that stupid? Oh I guess you do.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So, "caught up together with them in the clouds" suggests what other possible reading to you than that people are to rise up into the sky and be lost in clouds?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Being wrong about a particular timing of the Rapture isn't going to challenge the idea of the Rapture.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: Being wrong about a particular timing of the Rapture isn't going to challenge the idea of the Rapture. Yes, I know. Being wrong about pretty much everything has never changed your mind about anything. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
the idea that the word "cloud" is specific to the 21st century is nuts. If there was to be some fancy interpretation of the word it would come in the 21st century not some other century.
There is no reason to think the pillar of cloud that led the Israelites was anything but a pillar that looked like a cloud. We read "a great cloud of witnesses" symbolically, we don't think of them looking like a cloud.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Being wrong according to EvC complaints doesn't change anything of course. If I say I'm wrong that's something else entirely. And I haven't been dogmatic about this Rapture timing feeling at all, just said it feels close to me, and it still does. So if it doesn't happen then I will be wrong about that timing, but that isn't going to change anything about the prophecy of the Rapture since scripture is very clear about that.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined:
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quote: Oh well, evidence is not persuasion.
quote: Everybody probably arrives at a "preferred interpretation".Why shouldn't I "prefer" a more convincing interpretation? quote: Co-reigning with Christ mattered to Christ.So I believe it matters. quote: One Person is Christ Who is to reign - (Revelation 19:15)The OTHER persons [plural] are those who overcome (Revelation 2:26,27) The Manchild is consistent with the evidence because " THEY overcame him ..." quote: In Acts 1:11 the disciples are assured that AS He ascended, similarly He will descend again someday.
And while they were looking intently into heaven as He went, behold, two men in white clothing stood besides them, Who also said, Men of Galilee, ... This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you beheld Him going into heaven. (see Acts 1:10,11) My "preferred interpretation" is that this means there will be similar characteristics of His second coming as to when they beheld Him going into heaven.
quote: One reason that I prefer to interpret the Manchild consists of those saints that have DIED is because the text says that they loved not their soul-life, even unto DEATH.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto DEATH. (Rev. 12:11) My preferred understanding is that Revelation, in its thoroughness, reveals both a vindication of the living overcomers as Firstfruits and deceased overcomers as the corporate Manchild. That chapter 12 would reveal this resurrection and rapture seems consistent with the REQUEST of the souls of the martyred saints underneath the altar in chapter 6:9-11 in the Fifth Seal. These saints who died for their faith ask God how long before they are vindicated. Part of the answer is in the vision of the Manchild in chapter 12.
And when He (the Lamb) opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of he word of God and because of the testimony which they had. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth ? And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were abut to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (Rev. 6:9-11) Faithful believers both from the old covenant time and the new covenant time constituted the stronger part of the universal bright woman. A remnant from within the whole body of God's people, as a stronger part, will be resurrected and raptured as a Man-child and destined to co-reign with Christ. When he goes up Satan is cast down and the time and times and half a time of great tribulation commence (Rev. 12:5,6, 14) The "weaker" element of the Woman who brought forth the Manchild of strength is persecuted severely on the earth for \[B\]a thousand two hundred and sixty days. If one objects to calling this a pre-tribulation rapture, it certainly is a pre- a thousand two hundred and sixty days rapture. I prefer to understand it as a pre-great tribulation rapture.
quote: I don't promise to convince you. Why would I guarantee your persuasion? I have no problem understanding the warnings of Matthew 24:41-42as they are consistent perfectly with the parables about His coming and expecting His servants to be on their guard. Watch therefore, for you do not know in what hday your Lord comes. (v.42) This kind of warning is more likely about unsuspecting moment rather than a tumultous and sensational annoucement. The following verse also suggests SUPRISE in arrival rather than LOUD ANNOUCEMENT of arrival.
But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (vs. 43,44) As long as the Christian gets the message to live vigilantly, watching that he or she is in the presence of Jesus Christ, and that eventually this presence will be a matter of physically SEEING Him, it does not matter too much when he thinks the moment will come. My preferred interpretation is that THIS warning is for a time when we do not expect Christ to come. At the end of the great tribulation He is mightily EXPECTED to appear in visible glory. If He comes to snatch some remnant away and latter comes to reap a harvest majority Acts 1:9-11 is STILL true.
quote: Jesus spoke of Himself as the OT God incarnate who desired to gather the Jews in Matthew 23:37-39, We Christians believe that Jesus is God incarnate. So that He would continue that theme in Matthew 24:29-30 is consistent with Him being Yawheh incarnate. Whatever the promises of God there are, the Yes and the Amen are in Jesus Christ (Second Corinthians 1:20) If you have a better way to live for Christ's coming again, you follow that.I don't promise to persuade you of anything. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: So if it doesn't happen then I will be wrong about that timing, but that isn't going to change anything about the prophecy of the Rapture since scripture is very clear about that. But scripture is also very clear that it was supposed to have happened about 1900 years ago. It failed. It has been a failed prophecy ever since.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
so basically you are saying that the Bible books contain myriad examples of failed prophecy.
Also that Jesus was wrong a time or two. also that the "god character" needs correcting by humans at times according to the stories. concluding that the Bible was written, edited and redacted by humans.
What do you believe? IF humans wrote the stories, all that you have are humans charging other humans to do good. Why claim Episcopalianism? Why not simply come out as a secular humanist?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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