Christianity and the End Times

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And that is untrue, the fall of the devil is celebrated because it will end the accusations he made against the overcomers.

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So AFTER his expulsion Satan ceases any more accusation against the saints, and that especially for the following thousand two hundred and sixty days ?Were you saying something about CONTEXT?Where is the celebrating of the saints after 12:8 on earth that no more accusation from the Devil is coming?What I read is that he comes down to the earth with great wrath. Deception continues. Accusation against the saints certainly continues.

Paulk, you say I very much prefer that the Man-child be a collective.I grant you your view for the moment. Ie. Its just the individual Jesus (unless you don't interpret that way).Without me "having my way" how is my expectation thwarted since the plain teaching of Jesus is that the overcomers will co reign with Him ?You see Paulk, I can be general about it. I lose nothing.
The overcomers WILL still reign with Jesus and shepherd the nations with an iron rod with Him.Important truths in the Bible are repeated in a number of places and in different ways.Does seeing the man-child as ONLY Jesus, do something for your theology (what ever it may be)?Each time I come to this thread I read through MORE past posts. I have YET to see something really clear about what you believe about Jesus whether risen, ascended or not.You can point me to your basics along this line.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Ah yes. Switch the subject to me warding off ad homs

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No, i’m asking you to support your claim.It’s funny, you ask me to support claims I have never made. You are prepared to accuse me of dishonesty without evidence. But here you are refusing to back up your claim and complaining about being caught in dishonesty.

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So the only "honest" understanding is that the man-child is not a collective?

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That is not something that I have ever claimed.However, an honest understanding of Revelation 12 would admit that the text does not make any overt connection between the manchild of verse 5 with the overcomers of verses 10-11. Which is a simple fact, easily discovered.

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So AFTER his expulsion Satan ceases any more accusation against the saints, and that especially for the following thousand two hundred and sixty days ?

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Certainly not before God.

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Where is the celebrating of the saints after 12:8 on earth that no more accusation from the Devil is coming?

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Why should there be ? 12:12 says that the devil is going to do,an awful lot of harm on Earth.

I can see that your style is to stay away from commitment and claims of faith."I never said thus and such."
"I never claimed thus and such."You have lots of critiques why others are wrong.
But burden to defend a position alludes you because you didn't CLAIM this or that.Understanding the Bible is also a matter of spiritual experience.
You're not seeing what is evident to others.So let's limit ourselves to Jesus Christ in some way being taken up to God's throne and God. How? And what does that mean to you ?Do you believe in the ascending of the man Jesus Christ as it is recorded in Acts ?Don't play the irrelevant card on us. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Paulk, you say I very much prefer that the Man-child be a collective.

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In fact I say that you desperately want it to be the overcomers mentioned in verses 10-11, and you want it to represent a literal Rapture, too.

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Without me "having my way" how is my expectation thwarted since the plain teaching of Jesus is that the overcomers will co reign with Him ?

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As I have already pointed out, you want the Bible to teach that there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Losing one of your best arguments for it certainly seems to be of great importance to you since you argue over it incessantly.

Satan's accusations after the expulsion from heaven:

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Certainly not before God.

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Well he certainly still opposes the saints day and night still.
What suddenly CHANGED in the heavenlies that war was made against him and he found no more place there?What changed?

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Why should there be ? 12:12 says that the devil is going to do,an awful lot of harm on Earth.

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Including accusing the saints? Yes or No?They cannot buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast.
Do you think ACCUSATION from the Devil has come to a complete end at his expulsion?If not, WHAT has transpired that it has ceased for a portion of believers in heaven but continued for another portion of believers on earth?What happened that suddenly he had nothing more he could say ABOUT some of them in heaven before God in an accusatory way ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I can see that your style is to stay away from commitment and claims of faith.
"I never said thus and such."
"I never claimed thus and such."

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By which you mean that I disagree with your misrepresentations of my position. If you do not want to see such responses you should avoid misrepresentation, as the forum rules require.

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You have lots of critiques why others are wrong.
But burden to defend a position alludes you because you didn't CLAIM this or that

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Or because you don’t bother to deal with the claims I do make.

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Understanding the Bible is also a matter of spiritual experience.
You're not seeing what is evident to others.

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I guess my love of the truth saves me from delusion.

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I guess my love of the truth saves me from delusion.

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To interpret the Man-child as a collective is not a "delusion".
It is a better interpretation given the context and the plain prediction of overcomers CO-reigning with a iron rod with their Lord.What is not your opinion is all delusion?Take a position. What is the significance of a thousand two hundred and sixty days after the catching up of the man-child ?Coincidental?
Illusary?

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I guess my love of the truth saves me from delusion.

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As I said, coming to this thread I try to catch up on the volumes of already written comments.As I read through WHICH comment begins to express the truth that you LOVE the clearest and best? Can you refer me to the page where your love of the truth really comes out?

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Well he certainly still opposes the saints day and night still.
What suddenly CHANGED in the heavenlies that war was made against him and he found no more place there?

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The reason is not given explicitly. The failure to kill the manchild - whatever that represents would seem a likely cause.

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Including accusing the saints? Yes or No?

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That really isn’t the point. The point is that the accusations before God stop. Certainly those accusations are important enough to be mentioned in the context of the celebration. Why would they celebrate the fall of the devil if that remained unchanged ?

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What happened that suddenly he had nothing more he could say ABOUT them before God in an accusatory way ?

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He was kicked out of Heaven, so he could not appear before God to utter his accusations, of course.

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As I read through WHICH comment begins to express the truth that you LOVE the clearest and best?

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There is no single truth which I love above the truth.My love of the truth is in the commitment to see what the Bible actually says, in the very first post.

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As I have already pointed out, you want the Bible to teach that there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture

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Okay, Let's talk about motive for a bit.Ie. A Pre-great tribulation rapture is what I really really want? I want it so bad that I twist scripture to make it say so.That's your insinuation. 1.) Did I insist that I KNOW I would participate in such a pre-tribulation rapture? 2.) Did I offer some guarantee that I would be raptured - pre-great tribulation should I be alive at that time ?I think I took the teaching as just as much a WARNING to me as to anyone else.Tell me about my vested interest that it be true.I want what God wants. Jesus said - Oh, I have a vested interest that in response to Christ's instructions I should be watchful at every time, beseeching that I would prevail to escape the things, but rather stand before the Son of Man whom I love - WHEREVER HE MAY BE.Guilty as charged. Sure I want to listen to what He commands about being watchful and worthy to escape the great tribulation.I teach "Selective Rapture".
The whole church will not be raptured at one time.Do you think I believe that I DON'T need to watch but OTHERS need to do so ?What's wrong with responding to the teaching of Christ exactly as He has commanded? Too much self preference ?? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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As I have already pointed out, you want the Bible to teach that there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture

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I see.So I just WANT it SO BAD that I believe that He will keep some out of the hour of trial which is about to come upon the whole inhabited earth - (Rev. 3:10) The condition is set.
The promise is made by Jesus.And if I just didn't WANT it to be so, SO BAD, I would make the words mean something else ?? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Ie. A Pre-great tribulation rapture is what I really really want? I want it so bad that I twist scripture to make it say so.

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I observe that you want the Bible to say that and you are prepared to twist scripture for that reason, yes. As such questions about motivation are a bit beside the point.

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1.) Did I insist that I KNOW I would participate in such a pre-tribulation rapture?

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Why would that be relevant ?

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2.) Did I offer some guarantee that I would be raptured - pre-great tribulation should I be alive at that time ?

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Why would that be relevant?The question is not even if there will be such a Rapture, the question is whether the Bible says that there will be.I put it to you that you have invested a lot in following certain teachers and if they turned out to be wrong it would mean that investment was foolish and wrong.Luke 21:36 can as easily be about surviving the events on Earth - more easily since verse 21 advises fleeing from Judaea rather than waiting to be Raptured. Verse 28 tells the disciples to look up when the signs appear in the heavens, because their redemption is near.Why should the disciples not be watchful for the signs to flee Judaea at the start of the Tribulation - as one example - rather than watching for signs that aren’t even mentioned ?