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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: You exaggerate immensely even though the supposed force you are talking about isn't even Christianity but Roman Catholicism. Roman Catholics are Christians but Protestants were even more effective at Genocide. Ever Native American belif system was suppressed as well as languages, cultures and sacred sites. It was ethnic cleansing on a scale never before seen.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Whoever suppressed the Indians it wasn't Protestant Christians.
And again you offer nothing but assertion, not a shred of evidence. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Did Protestant never come to the New World?
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
"Twert the Mormons."
"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
That seems like a silly limitation to put on God.
But some of us realize that behind the Universe is a Perfect God Who cannot fellowship with sin unless the sinner is redeemed and justified. jaywill writes:
I'm not doing the imagining. I'm going by the description of God that most Christians use. They describe Him as "all-powerful". You imagine no God.Or you imagine an imperfect God. But some, like you, have to diminish His power to "explain" their ludicrous theology.
jaywill writes:
And yet He creates evil.
God being a goodness above which is impossible, will not be one with iniquity, sin, transgression. jaywill writes:
But there's no reason to "give up" on man. He could just accept His creation as He made it. Most parents don't give up on their children because of a few flaws.
The beauty of the rest of the Bible is that rather than give up on man God had a plan of eternal salvation, eternal redemption, and reconciliation. jaywill writes:
But if you make the wrong choice it's eternal punishment. That's no "free" choice.
... one who did not impose Himself on His creature but gifted him with a free will to choose God out of want and love. jaywill writes:
I'll never "get" that 2 + 2 = 5. Because it isn't. Maybe you'll never get it.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Here is a shred of evidence. Whoever suppressed the Indians it wasn't Protestant Christians. Canada is a largely Catholic country and I know you have nothing but contempt for Anglicans. The United Church is an amalgamation of Methodists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians and Evangelical United Brethren. You'll also find some Mennonites and Baptists in the list.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: Don't know what can be done to help you if you want to be willfully wrong. Literally the translation - ... you will surely die is more like - Dying you will die. The serpent saying "You will not surely die" was a lie. It amounts also to "NOT dying you will die." What happened?
And all the days Adam lived were nine hundred twelve years, and he died. (Genesis 5:5) He surely died.Dying he died as God had warned. quote: There is no reason given for them to die apart from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The warning was not "If you do not eat of the Tree of Life, you will surely die."The warning was "eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will surely die." You argue about potentiality - She could still have eaten of the Tree of Life and lived forever. What happened ? Did they surely die or did they live forever ?
And all the days Adam lived were nine hundred twelve years, AND HE DIED. (Genesis 5:5) Whose word turned out to be TRUE - God's or the serpent's ?God's word turned out to happen. The serpent LIED. And you're lying to yourself to champion the serpent as the agent of truth there. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Relying on literal translations of idioms is hardly a sensible way to understand them.
quote: That death did not occur on the day he ate the fruit so it is certainly not as God warned. Nor was it sure before his exile from the Garden as I have already pointed out.
quote: Apart from being unable to eat from the Tree of Life, which would have let them live forever. Moreover the story gives no reason to think that they were immortal before eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
quote: No, I argue about certainty. It was not certain that Eve would die when the serpent spoke, even if she ate the fruit. Therefore it was false to say that she would surely die.
quote: The serpent’s of course. Adam and Eve’s death was not certain until God exiled them, which had not happened when the Serpent spoke. And neither Adam or Eve literally died the day that they ate the fruit.
quote: I understand. You have to lie about me because I refuse to believe my lies. You phony Christians are all alike.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Are you deliberately ignoring, "in the day that thou eatest thereof "? Literally the translation - ... you will surely die is more like - Dying you will die. For your interpretation to work, you have to mangle TWO things in the text. You have to mangle die into "spiritual death" and you have to mangle a day into nine hundred years. Occam must be spinning in his grave.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Aussie Member Posts: 275 From: FL USA Joined: |
Any of you wise guys want to offer YOUR view of where history is headed? Most of the "Wise guys" you are having this conversation with are actually wise enough to not have to pretend to have some magical crystal ball insight into a predetermined future for humanity. That would be you. "...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: This matter of IN THE DAY ... you will surely die is not a major problem to me. Hebrew translators cannot insist that YOM everywhere always HAD to mean a solar day of IE. 24 hours. The Recovery Version translates YOM in Gen. 2:4 as WHEN.
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created. WHEN Jehovah God made earth and heaven. (Gen. 2:4) [my bolding] The NIV and NLT also renders YOM there as WHEN.
New International Version This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
New International Version This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. Some English versions do translate the Gen. 2:4 YOM as DAY.
International Standard Version These are the records of the universe at its creation. On the day that the LORD God made the earth and skies,
New Heart English Bible This is the account of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
JPS Tanakh 1917 These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created,
in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven. King James 2000 Bible These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
American King James Version These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
American Standard Version These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
Douay-Rheims Bible These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth:
Darby Bible Translation These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens,
We were just told that it was SIX days involved in the making of world.So translators apply context decisions as to what is the likely clearest understanding of the use of YOM. In that same passage above some render the sense of at the time Christian Standard Bible These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation. At the time that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
GOD'S WORD Translation This is the account of heaven and earth when they were created, at the time when the LORD God made earth and heaven.
Holman Christian Standard Bible These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation at the time that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
The Bottom line is that you have no case to INSIST that YOM can only be understood in as a typical solar day. IE. " When you eat of it you will surely die. "" At the time you eat of it you will surely die. " Are valid ways to understand -
" ... for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:17) So Adam physically ceasing to breath and ceasing to have a heart beat after many years in 5:5 still means at the time or when or on the day he ate he died, even though he physically lived on for 930 years.
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred thirty years, and he died. (5:5) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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jaywill writes:
If anything, "when" is a narrower timeline than "day". If you say, "I'll see you when I get there," you don't mean nine hundred years later. "At the time you eat of it you will surely die," in no way suggests nine hundred years later. It's AT the time, not "long after the time". You're mangling the preposition in an attempt to justify your previous mangling. Oh, what a tangled web you weave.... The Recovery Version translates YOM in Gen. 2:4 as WHEN. The NIV and NLT also renders YOM there as WHEN.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: No it is not necessarily. I don't see you as having any case. Desperation to assure yourself that God is a liar and the Devil is a champion of truth in Genesis doesn't work. I think it tells us more about Ringo than about the Bible. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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jaywill writes:
And yet you present nothing to refute my case. Show us some evidence that "when" can mean nine hundred years later.
I don't see you as having any case. jaywill writes:
You're the one who's desparate to assure yourself that the Bible doesn't say what it says. I have no axe to grind. I don't care what the Bible says any more than I care what Dilbert says. Desperation to assure yourself that God is a liar and the Devil is a champion of truth in Genesis doesn't work. Genesis says what it says. If that doesn't tally with what you think it "should" say, that's too bad - but it still says what it says. They didn't die "when" they ate the fruit. Edited by ringo, : Spellingd.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's easy to get lost in this thread so maybe this has been discussed and I missed it, but I've been pondering these beasts of Revelation 13 and wondering what your view is. The beast from the sea is generally considered to be the Antichrist, and the beast from the land with the horns like a lamb I think the False Prophet.
The beast from the sea has all the characteristics of the beasts of Daniel 7 rolled into one: the lion of Babylon, the bear of Medo-Persia and the leopard of Greece, and the beast itself that has all these characteristics must be the Great and Terrible fourth beast from which the little horn comes, which is usually understood to be the Roman Empire in the time of Christ's first coming. The symbolism in Daniel has the beasts being both empires and ultimately a man, represented by Nebuchadnezzar's statue in Daniel 2, to which the Israelites Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused to bow although they were threated with death for their refusal, and God protected them miraculously. So that statue represents the Antichrist who will become a living reality during the Tribulation according to most interpreters. But the beast with horns like a lamb and a mouth that speaks like a dragon seems to be very much like the Little Horn or Daniel 7 which would make HIM the Antichrist. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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