Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?

Oh fer pete's sake. Yes eventually the world will come to an end. But meanwhile we ARE supposed to be good stewards of Planet Earth and that means figuring out what needs to be done so we can do it. I certainly don't think there is nothing that needs doing, but there does seem to be reason to question the causes of the Climate Change problem. Doesn't mean there ISN'T such a problem but DOES mean the causes aren't all that clear and that the solutions you have in mind may not be the best. In any case they shouldn't be politically imposed on us against our will.Meanwhile I really WOULD like to know what's happening to the birds.I'd also like to see some reasonable recognition that the Right isn't just out to destroy the environment but that it's apparently the needs of the economy that cause the problems you think need dealing with. It should be possible to take both sides into account.Thank you.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I did not see Trump's response to Greta. I am sure I will hear about it on the radio today.As for dictators, the more this polarized situation continues without any give from either side the more likely we will end up under one kind or the other.AbE: I think there are probably lots of things we can do to improve the environmental problems whatever their cause. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Sorry Phat, not getting it. The problem with the Left's solutions seems to me to be that they destroy the economy, put people out of work and make us dependent on enemy nations for things we should be able to supply for ourselves. And as long as the Left keeps accusing us of not caring or of being greedy, caring only about money, and when they have the power forcing their solutions on us that DO wreck the economy, the less inspired conservatives are to find solutions.Seems to me that the Right isn't trying to solve the environmental problems however, and that's a big problem in itself. Partly because they have been put on the defensive and always in the position of having to keep the economy from collapsing and people losing jobs etc etc. Michael Savage is the only one on the Right I've heard say how important it is to take care of the environment but I haven't read his book on that subject so I don't know what solutions he has in mind.

Here I was feeling a little better about the possibility of communication and you just blew it all to smithereens. I guess I'll go back to bed.

Ah Phat, sometimes I just don't know how to talk to you at all. Both Left and Right are political mindsets and may or may not have some religious or spiritual life. "Social justice," however, is about as far from Christianity as you can get in my understanding, being a form of Marxism, and I really don't want to get into a discussion about that, just state it. However, please don't impute to me the idea that Leftists are evil. I certainly think Leftist ideology is evil, most of it today deriving from the Cultural Marxism that took root in the Sixties, but I think those who hold it are misguided and need to be liberated from it.

Apparently there simply couldn't be a rational argument for Trump's position of course, he's just braindead, stupid, immoral and beyond redemption, so I'm not going to get an explanation from you. Maybe someone will mention it on the radio today.

Gosh, the unlikely explanations just proliferate in your fertile mind.

I don't recognize that view of the Right at all, so it's just a paranoid fantasy it seems to me. It may have some reality I suppose but it's so far from my own experience I can't say anything pro or con. Everybody on the Right I know is poor or not more than modestly well off. And of course I immediately think of all the Leftist billionaires too and wonder where they fit into your picture.I'd like to just ignore them all and try to take both sides into account from the totally UNmoneyed NONelites I'm familiar with.But as often happens when I've been up most of the night, I'm about to nod off and will have to come back later.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I was unable to sleep so I may have to get off the thread and try again to sleep, but I've been thinking about the topic and hope I can be coherent about my thoughts.Although it started with my objection to Greta Thunberg's accusations of people for not caring enough about the environment, I think this is an interestingly neutral topic politically. While the Left is on the side of the environment and the Right too often sees legislation for the environment as an interference with their capitalist concern for prosperity and the economy, for me it doesn't involve my usual problem with Leftist ideology as Marxist. I can share in much of the concern about the environment myself in other words, although I haven't been keeping up with the issues and need to learn more.There is always the usual problem that the Left tends to reduce it all to namecalling and accusations, which is what I was reacting to in Greta's speech. Oh we're all just greedy capitalist pigs and Trump is a moron who cares only about money and has no concern for the environment and so on and so forth. No benefit of the doubt, no civilized good will to seek the best construction on the opponent's actions and opinions. Just another version of Racist in the Leftist arsenal, and it's very hard to have a discussion when that is the main communication.I will say that this is maybe the only issue I would like to see the Left push harder, but of course in a sincere effort to make a case in a fair and thoughtful way without the accusations please. You might need to start with giving Trump some credit for a change and I know that may make it all impossible, but all Trump is doing is trying to accomplish his aim to build up the economy and make America prosperous again, and unfortunately that means reversing some pro-environment laws that interfere with industry. This is why the Left considers him to be an evil destroyer but in reality it's just that he's doing what he knows will improve the economy.The problem is that there is this conflict between building the economy and saving the environment. It shouldn't be necessary, it should be possible to have both, but like so much else it's become polarized, so that when the Left is in power they save the environment and let the economy go to hell, people lose jobs and so on, which is really a big reason why Trump won the election. All the Left seems to offer is things that cost money and make the average American worker insecure. So now we have the Right through Trump in power and he's reversing the environmental laws in order to save the economy. It's the reasonable thing to do from the point of view of bringing back American prosperity.And unfortunately it probably means Trump isn't sensitive to the needs of the environment much if at all. Most of the Right isn't. This isn't greed, this is just caring that people have jobs and don't have to be on welfare and that we don't have to buy oil from Saudi Arabia when we've got plenty of our own. Really, can't this be recognized as a legitimate concern?Why can't we have both an active program to improve the environment AND an active concern to improve the economy? They are both important.I'm falling asleep again already, have to come back later.

That's probably asking too much of your average businessman. The bottom line is what their job is all about, and their business is growing their own profits, and Trump favors them because their business grows the American economy very efficiently, provides needed products and provides employment. There is nothing wrong with any of this. Threats they inadvertently create have to be recognized and regulated by law, but if they are overregulated they will move out of the country and not be in a position to to grow the American economy.We don't have to postulate any nefarious motives in any of this. It's a practical problem that requires practical solutions. I'd add, however, that there is no way to get rid of human sin, if greed is a motivator it has to be channeled and used to good purpose, there is no way to eliminate it. And besides, while the Left loves to point at the rich as the greedy, the fact is that their own fingerpointing is motivated by greed. The envy of the rich by the poor is motivated by greed. Marxism as a system is motivated by greed and that's why it always produces evil tyrannical governments that murder dissenters, make poor people poorer while sustaining a wealthy ruling class. How do you know this? Sounds like an "article of faith" based on prejudice to me, or even the envy of the rich the poor are encouraged to have these days. Have you ever run a corporation with an eye to the bottom line? Seems to me it might be a much bigger responsibility than you appreciate, and far less motivated by greed than by the need to keep the business running efficiently, suppliers kept supplying and paid, laws understood and followed, taxes paid, and thousands of employees paid on time. Good point. If an enterprise produces a socially or enviromentally beneficial but also profitable product, the capitalistic system will provide the practicalities needed to change the economy in the eneficial directions without overregulation.But at some point we're going to have to look at the actual benefits of this "green" trend. They may not be quite as beneficial as some think. The US is already doing more than other nations toward clean air and water. There are also programs for planting more trees and I love that solution. I hear we already have something like twice the number of trees we had when the nation was founded, but we could use ten times that number. I live on a desert and getting anything green to grow here is a labor-intensive project but I think we should be working on it. We should also be doing something to save the Amazon rain forest and maybe establish others if that's possible. The more oxygen we can pump into the atmosphere the better. Methods to cut down emissions help too. We don't need hysteria which usually just creates worse problems, such as the absurd solution of doing away with the combustion engine altogether, the we just need cool-headed human ingenuity, and if it makes money so much the better.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I meant that instead of constantly bashing Trump his success at improving the economy needs to be recognized. It's what he promised to do and he's done it and that doesn't make him evil except in the eyes of the hysterical anticapitalistic Left.About the namecalling I was only talking about this subject where it seems to be impossible to get a discussion going because anything said in favor of growing the economy is met with "Liberal" denunciations and strings of invective against Trump. On this subject I agree that protecting the environment is extremely important and I want to promote any really rational ways we can do that without having to destroy the economy, and I think it is possible. Hyro pointed out that capitalism will kick in with beneficial solutions wherever they are really workable so that they make money. And "solutions" that don't work would only destroy us all. Yes that should be possible, as Hyro is also suggesting. But solar panels and wind turbines threaten the environment too. As I mentioned in my post to Hyro above, the green solutions are not necessarily as beneficial as we'd like to think.THE DANGERS TO THE BIRD POPULATION FROM "RENEWABLE ENERGY" SOLUTIONS, NOT TO MENTION HOUSE CATS AND PLATE GLASS WINDOWS.For instance, one concern mentioned on this thread is the decrease in the bird population, apparently in great numbers. There may be lots of reasons for this but I gather that insecticides and loss of habitat may be major reasons. (So if we planted huge numbers of birdfriendly trees would that take care of the habitat problem? I don't know, I'm asking, but surely it would help, besides providing a source of oxygen to offset the carbon dioxide emissions.)__ In any case I'm sure we do need to become more aware of the habitat problem in all our construction projects, as well as the insecticide problem. Speaking of capitalistic methods there whould be plenty of jobs possible in both these areas of practical concern.One of the big problems that came to mind when I became aware of the loss of the bird population was how the very solutions in renewable energy may be contributing enormously to their decrease. Do we ever hear how both the wind turbines and the solar panels kill birds by the probably millions? The usual explanations that focus on insecticides and loss of habitat may be very important but I don't think anyone knows how important in the broad spectrum of causes. Meanwhile the NEW forms of energy generation take a direct hitl on the bird population which is hardly ever mentioned that I know of. There are acres of wind turbines and solar panels in remote areas where birds are killed all the time. The intense heat rising from the solar panels roasts them mid-flight, the turbines kill them instantly. How are you going to keep this from happening? Is anyone thinking about it?Apparently there is also a nontrivial threat to the birds in our enormous population of housecats. A hundred years ago that wasn't a big threat but now it's a big enough threat to be mentioned in discussions of reasons for the decrease in the numbers of birds. Is anything being done about this? I'm not even aware of this being mentioned as a problem that cat owners should consider. I have a friend who put a bell on her cat's collar and hangs bird houses high in the trees, and keeps a cat-unfriendly bird feeder near her breakfast nook window where she can watch the birds. {She also keeps a bird book nearby in case an unfamiliar species shows up.) There should probably also be barriers to cats climbing the trees.My brother says they have a bush out front that is always bursting with birdsong, so many birds that if he waves his arms near the bush dozens suddenly take flight. Well I'm glad to hear there are so many left somewhere of course. But he says there is a neighborhood cat always sitting on the sidewalk watching that bush. What should be done? Put a wire fence around the bush maybe? I don't know. But much as I love cats I hate to think of them being responsible for killing so many birds. I was always rescuing birds and other creatures from my own cats when I had them. Now I'm seeing this may be a much bigger problem than we've known.Even the problem that birds get killed flying into plate glass windows got mentioned in a discussion of the causes of this problem, so even that is apparently a big enough factor to take into account, and ways of removing the problem have been discussed. Since everybody with such a window is familiar with this problem the math suggests it too is a huge factor.But I want to see the problem of the wind turbines and solar panels taken more into account because it seems to me that is likely to be a really huge factor.In other words our conservation problems aren't just limited to the combustion engine or manufacturing enterprises.So I think we need to be planting trees galore, all of us everywhere, and I know there are some who are doing that. But what can we do about the solar panels and the wind turbines killing birds? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I'm not sure we need to emphasize the science of climate change in order to do something toward solving whatever problems it may cause. We can get people to put their inventive human minds to ways to deal with catastrophic weather for instance, and rising sea levels (which don't seem to be rising nearly as fast given the loss of ice at the poles as might have been expected). There are places in the world where people live behind sea walls. Nothing is impossible if we put our minds to it. All it takes is the rare individuals who are good at thinking about such things to make a big difference. Put them to work on the problems and pay them well. But ordinary humanity loves to solve problems too, given enough freedom and encouragement in that direction.And of course I would encourage Christians to pray our hearts out that God would give us such solutions.I think we can talk about the obviously depressing consequences of the loss of the rain forest without even mentioning climate change. Greenery puts oxygen into the atmosphere, that's a good thing for us oxygen-dependent creatures. Promote the planting of greenery, promote the renewing of the rain forests. The program to replace forests that have been overlogged is great but the average citizen can plant trees too and the average citizen loves to get involved in beneficial projects. Put people to work considering all the problems involved, how tree roots invade pipes and destroy plumbing for instance, how certain kinds of trees are vulnerable to certain kinds of insect destruction (beautiful elm trees in my area for instance) and the insecticides cause their own problems. Hey we're the human race, we can put our minds to these problems, we don't have to succumb to hysterial half-baked solutions, we don't have to give in to pressures from any direction, just put our minds to whatever needs to be thought about.Educate people about the loss of birds. We all love birds. We love cats too and the view from our bird-killing windows. It's a problem to be solved with the ingenuity and good will of the human race. Promote methods of keeping cats away from birds. Promote bird houses and bird feeders to attract them where we can appreciate them. Plant trees, lots and lots and lots of trees. Not willynilly but based on an educated understanding of what trees work best for what purposes and how to minimize problems they could create in turn.Make a big fuss about how wind turbines and solar panels kill birds. Yes we must because they do kill them.We also know we don't like the smell of exhaust fumes and that they aren't healthy for living things. We don't need to carry on about climate change to educate people about how greenery produces oxygen and absorbs smelly carbon fumes.We don't need to scare poor little Greta Thunberg to death. Just give her and her generation a rational understanding of what we're up against and get them to exercise their God-given ingenious minds on solutions to the various problems. Make it into science projects. Stop scaring people to death about a future we really don't have the means to predict, and tget us focused on obvious practical problems where there are likely to be practical solutions.We're a problem-solving creature. Those of us who live in the prosperous west under capitalistic economies have the freedom and the natural encouragement to put our minds to whatever problems we are facing. We need people to lead us who know how to promote awareness of all the levels of secondary problems we can encounter in solving problems, we just need to be organized about it and stop blaming people like Trump who is good at what he does and does it with good will. But nobody knows everything and we all need to be open to problems our own abilities may create. But that may not even be necessary. Just get people thinking. Prayer is a good thing too, and it can get more of us thinking if we are focused in the right direction. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Hey did you know that termites produce more methane than all our cows? I heard that yesterday.Something to think about.

It was just a side note, no need to make it into some kind of gigantic thing. But if you want to contribute to the subject as I have been pursuing it, how about giving us the chemistry of controlling methane so we can think about it. I'm sure there must be such chemistry. I refuse to believe we have to shut down all human enterprise to care for the environment.

Greenery consumes carbon dioxide and gives off oxygen.