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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes:
Your god can not be both all powerful and all loving if he creates/allows suffering. He is not all-powerful enough to make us perfect.(without fundamentally changing our freedom and destiny) Some believe that He expects us to use the grace He gives us to become kinder, gentler, more altruistic individuals toward each other. Personally I have no doubts about His power. I have questions but no doubts about His intentions. And I fully understand why He allowed people the very right to disbelieve and even mock Him. Humans seem to be advancing towards the idea that we and only we are responsible for the future of humanity and human progress. We still have the ability to believe in Him were we to think it would help us in any way. That jury has not reached a conclusive decision. Edited by Phat, : added pointThe only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes: Really well put. I agree with all of that.
Science can examine anything that occurs in our physical universe. So far nothing has been found that requires a supernatural explanation. Science has continually explained the natural causes behind the supernatural claims made by religious believers. There is no reason why that process will not continue. Though we may be limited by the bounds of our own intelligence - we don't know that yet. There's no obvious reason why we should think ourselves able to understand everything. Maybe our machines will ultimately take it all the way? Certainly you and I will never know. Tangle writes: Could that be considered scientism of the gaps? However, wouldn't that be a discovery in the same vein as evolution. Evolution gave us a framework to understand how life evolved. However, just because we found out how life evolved it did not answer the question of the agency involved. Was the agency other natural processes or was there an intelligent agent? Scientists can observe the process happen naturally. It doesn't rule out at all the possibility that the natural process was set in motion and then left alone or even if there was intervention(s) at some point(s) in time. On that issue I'm agnostic. I am simply saying that if we understand what happened at T=0 it still will not rule out an intelligent agency.
That is only (partially) true at the very beginning of all the processes - the big bang - and then only because we don't understand it. Yet. Tangle writes: Largely correct except that when you talk about a god pulling on all of those strings it sounds like you are suggesting that God physically intervenes pretty much constantly. Yes I believe that God has intervened directly but I suggest that His intervention is mostly indirect, and being done by creating a world that understands good and evil and a consciousness that understands that we should override the evil and choose the good.
Given that everything we've ever examined is a result of natural causes, science's working hypothesis is that it all is. But the idea that a god is the original cause and intervenes no further is deism, which is not your belief. You believe that god somehow intervenes in undefined ways routinely in our universe - pulling the strings on unimaginable volumes of processes. Tangle writes: Once again understanding that stuff is well above my pay grade but again it is the process that you are describing not necessarily the agency. This is where we come apart. I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, that your belief is that the processes themselves are the agency where as I believe that the processes are the result of an intelligent agency.
You're still not getting this because you're thinking like a believer, not a scientist. Abiogenesis is not a black and white moment - no life, then life. It's a gradient, a messy development spectrum. It will be impossible to establish a single point because at that level of organic development we're talking more about chemistry than biology. But we know from studying life now that it goes from relatively simple replicating chemicals to complex organisms. The processes we see working today, are the same ones that have been working for billions of years. They develop both complex organisms from 'simple' ones - people from single cells - and all life from 'simple' chemicals. We know this as fact and understand many of the processes. They're all natural. Tangle writes: All true. However when I look at it I marvel at how a creative intelligence has made us co-creators of life. The processes that create all these life forms are natural. Two single cells from a man and a woman combine to eventually form an adult human being. Literally trillions of processes, each process kicking off the next - naturally. When one of these processes goes wrong because of an error in a gene or physical damage, development also goes wrong and we get malformations and even death.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: He is not all-powerful enough to make us perfect.(without fundamentally changing our freedom and destiny) But according to your book he is! He creates heaven where all is apparently perfect, why does he need this messy stuff?
Humans seem to be advancing towards the idea that we and only we are responsible for the future of humanity and human progress. That'll be because we're sick of waiting for some supernatural being to tidy up the mess he made here.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: Could that be considered scientism of the gaps? If you like. It just means it's at the edge of our current knowledge.
However, wouldn't that be a discovery in the same vein as evolution. Evolution gave us a framework to understand how life evolved. However, just because we found out how life evolved it did not answer the question of the agency involved. You've assumed an agency. Science doesn't assume agency; it concerns itself with evidence.
Yes I believe that God has intervened directly but I suggest that His intervention is mostly indirect, and being done by creating a world that understands good and evil and a consciousness that understands that we should override the evil and choose the good. 'Mostly'. What does that mean? As for the rest, it's just fanciful religious invention.
the process that you are describing not necessarily the agency. This is where we come apart. I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, that your belief is that the processes themselves are the agency where as I believe that the processes are the result of an intelligent agency. It's not a bloody belief! Stop doing that! It's just factual, observational science. There are processes all the way down. None require external interference. There is no point in any of the processes that require external intervention, they all follow naturally one to the next. Can you show us anything that requires it?
All true. However when I look at it I marvel at how a creative intelligence has made us co-creators of life. Marvel away. But please point to any part of the process from conception to birth that requires supernatural intervention. All those zillions of processes - where is the intervention?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
But according to your book he is! He creates heaven where all is apparently perfect, why does he need this messy stuff? If He made us perfect from day one, we would have had no free will nor no development and choice to achieve what He ordained for usProtecting us and making us sanctified would have defeated the whole purpose of our existence. The "messy stuff" as you put it was necessary to give us a resistance to fight against. You will say He blew it by causing many deaths and suffering along the way, but I doubt you would even listen to His explanation of why it had to be that way. You would simply set up the straw god and then indict him according to human logic and justice. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
...please point to any part of the process from conception to birth that requires supernatural intervention. And yet you would have no problem with the "winner of a giant cosmic lottery" explanation. You would place more faith and likelihood on a random chance than on an intelligent designer. As for the supernatural part, you would never believe anything that you had never seen. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes: Maybe we mean different things by agency. In terms of natural causes I can use this example. A tsunami occurs. I would understand that the agency was an earthquake. However I may be extending the meaning of the term beyond what is intended. I probably should simply use supernatural cause or natural cause.
You've assumed an agency. Science doesn't assume agency; it concerns itself with evidence. Tangle writes: I agree that in the vast majority of cases stuff happens naturally, however I personally believe that God does intervene with the major example being the resurrection.
'Mostly'. What does that mean? Tangle writes: We don’t know. I contend that life required external intervention and as part of that consciousness, sentience, and morality. I know you have theories of how these evolved naturally which may or may not be accurate, but even if they are we have no way of knowing whether or not there was a intelligent cause and or intervention(s) that occurred.
There is no point in any of the processes that require external intervention, they all follow naturally one to the next. Can you show us anything that requires it? Tangle writes: I know you disagree but IMHO the natural process itself required supernatural intervention in order to exist. But please point to any part of the process from conception to birth that requires supernatural intervention. All those zillions of processes - where is the intervention?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: If He made us perfect from day one, we would have had no free will nor no development and choice to achieve what He ordained for us. Is there free will in heaven?
Protecting us and making us sanctified would have defeated the whole purpose of our existence. What is the purpose of our existence?
The "messy stuff" as you put it was necessary to give us a resistance to fight against. You will say He blew it by causing many deaths and suffering along the way, but I doubt you would even listen to His explanation of why it had to be that way. You would simply set up the straw god and then indict him according to human logic and justice. Who was it that gave us human logic and justice? Would who ever did it expect us not to use it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: There is evidence for random chance as well as many other actions within evolution but there is zero evidence of any intelligent design or designer and overwhelming evidence that there is no plan or goal. You would place more faith and likelihood on a random chance than on an intelligent designer. Sorry but GDR and many others are simply using the Gods they create as an answer to the questions that they want to hear. It's fine to believe that there is a GOD that is the creator of all, seen and unseen but to pretend there is any external purpose or rhyme or reason to all that is seen and unseen is just hubris.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: I know you disagree but IMHO the natural process itself required supernatural intervention in order to exist. You keep dodging. In the example I gave of conception to birth there are literally billions of processes that occur naturally. In embryology we can see each developmental stage. You can't point to a single one that requires anything supernatural. If you want to say that god created the the circumstances where those processes developed naturally, we say that is simply a god of the gaps argument. But in that case it's a deist belief, not a theistic one anyway. Unless you can find a place for intervention, you do not have an interventionist god.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes: Fine. I’m not saying that natural processes don’t exist. My point was that the process itself has a supernatural cause. I agree that I can’t objectively know that.
You keep dodging. In the example I gave of conception to birth there are literally billions of processes that occur naturally. In embryology we can see each developmental stage. You can't point to a single one that requires anything supernatural.Tangle writes: No it’s not. It is an answer as to why something exists, which is not a question of science. It is a philosophical and/or theological issue.
If you want to say that god created the the circumstances where those processes developed naturally, we say that is simply a god of the gaps argument.Tangle writes: I agree, that is as far as that takes us.
But in that case it's a deist belief, not a theistic one anyway.Tangle writes: As a Christian I see it in the resurrection, and then again back to that still small voice. Unless you can find a place for intervention, you do not have an interventionist god.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: Fine. I’m not saying that natural processes don’t exist. My point was that the process itself has a supernatural cause. I agree that I can’t objectively know that. Right, we can't go any further than that without solving the something from nothing problem. Just be aware that that gap in our knowledge may also be filled, possibly within our lifetimes. Sadly though neither of us will understand it.
No it’s not. It is an answer as to why something exists, which is not a question of science. It is a philosophical and/or theological issue. I'm afraid it is. You filled the gap in our knowledge about how the universe came into existence by inserting an uncaused cause. That's not an explanation it's a linguistic trick.
As a Christian I see it in the resurrection..,
Which is merely mythology.
and then again back to that still small voice.
Which we know is a naturally developed brain function.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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=TangleI'm afraid it is. You filled the gap in our knowledge about how the universe came into existence by inserting an uncaused cause. No it isn't. It is not a gap in scientific knowledge. It is an explanation as to why the science is as it is. Part of the problem is that our minds can only comprehend time as we experience it in one direction. Ultimately there has to be a first cause that is uncaused. It might be mindless or intelligent.
Tangle writes: We've been around that one before. Yes, it is a belief for which there is historical evidence.
Which is merely mythology. Tangle writes: ..which does not preclude the idea that there is also that still small voice. Which we know is a naturally developed brain function. Off to bed. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Is there free will in heaven? I believe so. There most certainly was a war in Heaven where Lucifer and 1/3 of the angelic hosts got booted out. (According to some popular mythos) so I'm assuming that we too would have it. On the other hand, once someone decides to get on a bus or a plane, they don't simply get to stop it and get off mid-trip. Very few people change their minds. The freedom of free will in Heaven is to desire to be there and/or remain. Where else would one wish to go? Or do you mean to assume that you can make independent decisions in Heaven? Good question, that.
What is the purpose of our existence? According to the last bit of Ecclesiastes, the following statement is made: Eccl 12:13-14 writes: Of course since you have judged God as evil already, you may have difficulty with a Heavenly abode. Thankfully your brain has adopted an alternative explanation of reality. So I have a question for you: 3 Now all has been heard;here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. (from New International Version) Would a good and fair God allow you the option of opting out? Can you imagine any reason that He wouldn't, assuming that He is good and fair? Who was it that gave us human logic and justice? Would whoever did it expect us not to use it? Also a good question. Assuming that someOne did give it to us, an additional question might be *how* did He expect that we would use it?The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And yet you too write your chosen belief. You claim the God you believe in to be unknowable, and you claim no way of knowing different until after you die. (If even then) There has to be some reason that you reject the interactive God of popular mythos and belief. You are, of course attempting to use logic and evidence and avoid fantasy. My point is that you essentially have no such thing as leaps of faith.
Another part of your belief that differs from popular mythos is that you claim God if God exists as being *complete* rather than "Good". Essentially you have given God the responsibility to represent both good and evil. Sort of like the concept of Fatalism. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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