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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: That is again your assertion. It's not an sodding assertion! It's a fully observed, evidentially supported and scientifically frigging tested finding. Try not to deny in your face facts, it harms your credibility.
John was written by a disciple who followed Jesus prior to the resurrection so it isn't hearsay. Luke and Acts were written by a man who traveled with Paul and who had contact with the original disciples. It isn't hearsay. Matthew was possibly written by a disciple but it would have been written in consultation with the disciples. It is more unclear about who wrote Mark but it certainly would have again been with input from the disciples. Mark was the first Gospel written and was also a source for the other synoptics. We do not know who wrote the stories. Period. Without even that basic piece of information everything in them is speculative. They were all written decades after the events and none of them were eye witnesses. All hearsay. Look it up.
quote: Authorship of the Bible - WikipediaJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Phat writes: Rethinking about the basic differences in our respective thought processes. For believers, the evidence does not have to be (indeed likely is not) "evident" to whosoever studies it. What you are referring to is the difference between "support" and "evidence." It is a tricky subject, with many subtleties.But the word "evidence" does have a meaning already... and it is not the same as "support." Trying to mince the two together so that they mean the same thing removes the significance behind having a word such as "evidence" in the first place. Support: This is the idea of a specific piece of information pointing towards a specific conclusion - but it disregards all other informaion.Evidence: This is the idea that all the available information points towards a specific conclusion - you are no longer allowed to disregard other information if you're using the term "evidence." The two terms are kind of confusion, here is an example to help show the differences: The story of the Blind Men and the Elephant:
quote: Now, to talk about support vs. evidence. At the point where each individual man only gets the information they are individually aware of... the "support" and "evidence" they receive are the same thing. Touching the side and thinking the elephant is a wall.-if this is the only information available, then this information supports the idea that the elephant is a wall and this information is also evidence that the elephant is a wall. However, what if the men talk to each other? Or what if a sighted person comes along and discusses the full picture with them?This is where the idea of "support" vs. "evidence" becomes clear. Once all the information is available, the situation changes to this: -Touching the side of the elephant is still information that "supports" the idea of the elephant being a wall-However, this is no longer "evidence" of the elephant being a wall because there is more information available that does not align with the elephant being a wall (walls don't have trunks and tusks and tails and ears...) Bringing it back to your statement:
or believers, the evidence does not have to be (indeed likely is not) "evident" to whosoever studies it. What people are explaining to you: "Evidence is always evident to everyone."-this is referring to the elephant; the full picture If believers cared enough to review all the information, then they would not be able to "choose" what is evident... there are never 2 (or more) possible answers to evidence. Evidence is always a single conclusion... or else it's not evidence. It's just support. If believers do not care to review all the information, or purposefully ignore certain areas of knowledge... then they are left with "support" for their position.All kinds of information exists that supports all kinds of different beliefs. You just don't get to call it "evidence" unless you take an honest, all-information-available, encompassing position and look at it objectively. If not - then we need another word: Super-evidence! that means "taking an honest, all-information-available, encompassing position."But, in normal language, the word "evidence" is already used to refer to this "looking at all available information" idea. The area you may want to focus on is this:-conclusions based on past or current evidence can be misleading or incorrect. -but, again, this is only confirmed/understood/known/identified by gaining more information... more support and then the conclusion of the "current evidence... now including the additional just-learned information" may be different from what was previously shown by the previous evidence. -but this, if you accept it, is what we refer to as "Science."
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes: We do not know who wrote the stories. Period. Without even that basic piece of information everything in them is speculative. They were all written decades after the events and none of them were eye witnesses. All hearsay. Look it up. Richard Bauckman has wriiten a book, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses which I am still reading about the authorship of the Gospels. Using the original languages with all of the material available from that area he has shed considerable new light on who it was the wrote or compiled the Gospels. There is much more data now available. Also the Gospels were written during the life time of those who were eyewitnesses to the Jesus' teaching and resurrection. Your article confirms that John was written by a disciple although it may have the author right but with information from what was written by Papius it was likely John the elder as opposed to John the evangelist. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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GDR writes: Richard Bauckman has wriiten a book, Well done him.
Also the Gospels were written during the life time of those who were eyewitnesses to the Jesus' teaching and resurrection. They were written up to 80 years after Jesus's alleged death. A massive game of telephone had been played around thousands of campfires by then. The authors are unknown and were not eyewitnesses, therefore it is all hearsay. Witness evidence is terrible anyway, the worst kind; anonymous people writing up other people's stories decades after the supposed events is useless. Doesn't even come close to anything remotely useful.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
It is on no way "obvious" that the Bible was intended as non-fiction. Ask someone to explain to you the difference between what was is obviously meant to be fiction and what is obviously meant to be non-fiction."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Indeed, parts of it - like Esther - clearly are fiction.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: So explain the following:
Width has to be wide for everybody, dogs have to be canine for everybody, evidence has to be evident for everybody. Matt 7:13-14 writes:
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Also while we are at it, what do you define as fiction? Why did the late Stan Lee use to begin his podcasts with "Greetings, True Believers!" You see, there are basically two roads. Two imaginations, if you will. There is the vanity of our own imagination and there is the truth of God's imagination itself...which is, in essence, the Spirit of Creativity. You may say that I'm adding to the "fiction" but I am merely extrapolating on it. He who has an ear, listen up.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes:
Just as it is currently obvious that the news media feeds off of fiction. The day has come where a bunch of Bronze Age writings provides more comfort than many of the "facts" that the media proliferates upon the sheeple. (Buzzsaws favorite word ) It is on no way "obvious" that the Bible was intended as non-fiction.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: You are correct. I will try and use the word, "support". I am trying to get ringo to see that scriptural writings support scriptural philosophy and that though scripture does not always refer to a generic context, it can be studied that way if I have already decided for my life that the beliefs and teachings are valid philosophy for today's world. What people are explaining to you: "Evidence is always evident to everyone."-this is referring to the elephant; the full picture If believers cared enough to review all the information, then they would not be able to "choose" what is evident... there are never 2 (or more) possible answers to evidence. Evidence is always a single conclusion... or else it's not evidence. It's just support. If believers do not care to review all the information, or purposefully ignore certain areas of knowledge... then they are left with "support" for their position.All kinds of information exist that support all kinds of different beliefs. You just don't get to call it "evidence" unless you take an honest, all-information-available, encompassing position and look at it objectively.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5
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quote: You need to read the full chapter Phat. This part is especially relevant.
21 Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.' It’s not about mere assent to propositions like God exists or even Jesus is Lord. It’s because doing what Jesus requires is HARD. The evidence may show the way but it doesn’t compel you to walk it. You, of all people, should know that.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's what apologetics is all about. The broad road is an easy sell - all you have to do is profess belief and you get out of hell free.
Why is the road to destruction so broad? What misapplied evidence leads so many to travel that path? Phat writes:
You could ask the same question about creationism. People who reject the evidence don't have "different evidence". They just choose easy answers.
Why do only a few find the narrow path? Surely the evidence is available for everyone. Phat writes:
Fiction is made up. It doesn't conform directly to reality. There are real prodigal sons but the details in that story might be an amalgamation of several different stories. Fiction is reality altered to make a point.
Also while we are at it, what do you define as fiction? Phat writes:
The imaginings of an imaginary being are not somehow " more real" than our own imaginings.
There is the vanity of our own imagination and there is the truth of God's imagination itself...which is, in essence, the Spirit of Creativity. Phat writes:
Acknowledging that we are responsible for all of the answers is humbling ourselves. Bragging that your Sky Daddy has all the answers is anything but humble. What benefit can we get by humbling ourselves under a higher power rather than marching around as if we ourselves are the only source of the answers?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That isn't obvious. Unthinking people prefer the easy answers of fiction but you can't blame the media for that. Just as it is currently obvious that the news media feeds off of fiction."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Acknowledging that we are responsible for all of the answers is humbling ourselves. Bragging that your Sky Daddy has all the answers is anything but humble. We are responsible for what we know. As I have said many times before, one cannot simply be left at the altar waiting forever for evidence to show up. They had witnesses and stories back then, yet you claim that apologists or some other rebel faction wrote the book as a propaganda tool for their own agendas... which I find laughable. Yes, I know human nature all too well. People market religion for their own agendas these days more than ever. I see that. But I'm puzzled why you found your belief so empty. I feel God's presence when I pray....and I keep my belief because it is NOT empty. At this point in my life, even if I were able to somehow throw it away I would never find anything to replace it. You evidently did. Though I don't know you or your experience, I can't believe that you were as deep into it as I am. You wanted to make sense out of dogmatic pageantry. You rejected the dog and pony show and threw the "belief" out with it. I have never been a fan of the rituals, the "turn to your neighbor and say" or the "give God a shout of Praise" edict that many churchgoers seem to love. My relationship is treasured and personal. Even if I was more curious about science and evidence-based thinking, (which I do use to some degree) I wouldn't discard my belief because of it. Neither did such intelligent people as Dr. Stephen Meyer Granted I am uninterested in creationism arguments. They don't help my faith at all, but I am glad to see at least one intelligent person who finds it necessary to defend it. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
ringo writes: It is on no way "obvious" that the Bible was intended as non-fiction. Frankly I wasn't going to dignify that by responding, but I'll just show you this link. Fiction wasn't invented until the 12th century.
The Invention of Fiction Edited by GDR, : wasn't instead of wasHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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You do realize Homer's Odyssey was written well before the 1100s.
That gives Poseidon, Zeus, Athena, and the cyclops Polyphemus the same reality as your god and your Jesus.Factio Republicana delenda est.
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