Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,889 Year: 4,146/9,624 Month: 1,017/974 Week: 344/286 Day: 0/65 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   evolution vs. creationism: evolution wins
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5288 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 15 of 310 (87873)
02-21-2004 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Itachi Uchiha
02-20-2004 10:36 PM


The maths of decay.
jazzlover_PR writes:
The fundamental equation is T=Ti(e^kt) Where k is the constant that is constantly changed it comes from dk/dt=kt
You seem to be really confused about elementary maths and calculus. The trick is to recognize that you don't actually know what you are talking about with respect to the mathematical formulae of decay, and express yourself accordingly.
The constant k is does not change at all; that is what constant means. It is called the decay constant, and usually identified with the symbol lambda (λ). Every radioactive substance has a characteristic decay constant, which is fixed. Thus dk/dt = 0 (or dλ/dt = 0).
The formula you have written uses a "T" and also a "t". This is a bit odd. The symbol "t" is a reference to time. Knowing this, the formula you have given is recognizable as an equation more often written as N = Ni(e^-λt). N is the number of atoms at time t, and Ni is the initial number of atoms (at time zero). Note the minus sign.
From basic calculus, we have dN/dt = -λN, or in your notation dT/dt = -kT. Watch the capitals.
The minus sign means that the number of atoms is getting smaller with time, as they decay. The derivative dN/dt is the rate at which atoms are decaying, or the number of atoms lost per unit time. The equation dN/dt = -λN means that the number of atoms that are decaying depends on the number of atoms in the sample, and on the decay constant of the substance.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 02-20-2004 10:36 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 02-21-2004 9:15 AM Sylas has replied
 Message 19 by NosyNed, posted 02-21-2004 11:48 AM Sylas has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5288 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 24 of 310 (87921)
02-21-2004 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Itachi Uchiha
02-21-2004 9:15 AM


Re: The maths of decay.
jazzlover_PR writes:
... the decay model has to have its constant adjusted every certain time. ...
I have responded to this assertion in another thread in a more appropriate forum. See: Message 1.
Best wishes -- Sylas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 02-21-2004 9:15 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5288 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 25 of 310 (87923)
02-21-2004 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by mike the wiz
02-21-2004 12:11 PM


Re: Looking at it neutrally
mike the wiz writes:
... Have we seen a new species emerge ever? - I'm talking about, say - a mammal. ...
Yes. I gave an example of speciation of mice on the island of Madeira in another forum. See: Message 35, and Message 40 (same thread); plus associated links. There is increasing recognition by creationists that they require enormous amounts of speciation (far more rapid evolution than required by evolutionary biology) to allow for the diversity of animal life since the flood. See Speciation Conference Brings Good News for Creationists, in which Carl Wieland of Answers in Genesis actually cites observed speciation as evidence for creationism. (Obligatory sheesh: Sheesh)
Cheers -- Sylas
[This message has been edited by Sylas, 02-21-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mike the wiz, posted 02-21-2004 12:11 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5288 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 27 of 310 (87953)
02-22-2004 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by mike the wiz
02-22-2004 9:24 AM


mike the wiz writes:
Hi Sylas, no obligatory sheesh needed.
The "sheesh" is obligatory when reading Carl Wieland's paper. It was not a reference to you; my apologies for failing to make that clear.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by mike the wiz, posted 02-22-2004 9:24 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by mike the wiz, posted 02-22-2004 10:28 AM Sylas has replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5288 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 37 of 310 (88022)
02-22-2004 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by mike the wiz
02-22-2004 10:28 AM


mike the wiz writes:
Apparently the mice are somewhat explained as when in your link the Creationist says speciation is infact assigned a place in the Creationist model. I'm guessing you would disagree with him about that?
Am I off topic?
We are both off topic; but if we are real quiet about it they might not notice. I'll try to slip in some stuff about a contest and winning; we might get away with it...
I don't actually think anything the creationists have corresponds to a model, as the term is used in science. Some creationists think speciation can't occur; some recognize that it does occur. In neither case do they have an actual model which can be used to make any kind of prediction or test of the putative model. Talking of "winning" or "losing", in such cases, is beside the point. They aren't even playing the game.
Science never works by absolute certainty or "truth", but it does work by proposing models that have empirical consequences, and we can have considerable confidence in various models which have been stringently tested and explored. Evolution is one such; it stands in relation to biology pretty much as the periodic table stands in relation to chemistry.
In so far as a creationist model has been given that can be tested, it has been falsified. This at least is better than a no-show.
The mice in Madeira don't usually give any pause to creationists. Those who insist speciation can't occur say that this isn't speciation, because they are "still mice". Those who agree that speciation does occur claim that this is just the kind of minor change which fits a creationist model.
It does stand as an illustration that speciation occurs and is observed; and can be helpful in answering an honest question from someone like yourself on whether we observe speciation or not.
Another thing about this example which is interesting is refutation of a common argument given against our relationship with the great apes. Humans have one less chromosome than chimpanzees and gorillas; and some creationists have argued that this indicates a deep division incompatible with common ancestry. The mice are a simple and comprehensible illustration that this argument is incorrect; since they have had just such a fusion of chromosomes as occured in our own lineage.
In any case, the amount of speciation required to allow animal life to be descended from what was carried on an Ark several thousand years ago is orders of magnitude greater than what we see taking place today. It would be macroevolution at an unprecedented level; orders of magnitude more than anything proposed in evolutionary biology.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by mike the wiz, posted 02-22-2004 10:28 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 02-22-2004 7:21 PM Sylas has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5288 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 44 of 310 (89934)
03-02-2004 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by TrueCreation
03-02-2004 9:57 PM


TrueCreation writes:
Some of them tend to migrate toward some of these unfortunate characteristics. I think Baumgardner is one of the only ones I could disclude from that list with some confidence.
I was interested to see Glenn Morton say similar things in a post at TheologyWeb; though with a rather serious proviso. I trust Glenn does not mind me quoting an extract...
I have more respect for John [Baumgardner] than most YECs. [...] John also is trying to solve the YEC problems, unlike most YECs who won't even acknowledge that there are problems. While I think John is doomed to failure and have criticised his stuff, he is more honest about the issues than anyone at AIG. And when he runs into the insuperable problem, he declares it a miracle, which is the only way for YEC to solve their problems.
I've not looked into his material in any depth; but what little I have seen seems worse than Glenn's comments would suggest. In any case, those interested can see Baumgardner's own web site for themselves.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by TrueCreation, posted 03-02-2004 9:57 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by wj, posted 03-02-2004 11:56 PM Sylas has not replied
 Message 52 by TrueCreation, posted 03-07-2004 3:41 PM Sylas has replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5288 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 54 of 310 (91033)
03-07-2004 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by TrueCreation
03-07-2004 3:41 PM


The online home of Dr. John Baumgardner's work related to the Genesis flood
Yes, it is obviously John Baumgardner's own page.
The domain information you found may be related to Baumgardner's webmaster/technical support. The name "Dennis" does not appear on the pages at all that I can see. It is all Baumgardner, and largely written in the first person. There is some third person stuff; but this is not really unusual in describing your own background in professional style writing. Some bits could have been written by a webmaster, but John is clearly the driving force behind setting up this page.
I have taken the title of this post from the description given right at the top of the main page of globalflood.com. The FAQ is set up with Baumgardner's email (baumgardner.atsymbol.globalflood.org) as the place to submit questions. The reason for the web site is given at The Age of the Earth index page (at the end of the page):
My work on this problem has primarily involved computer experiments that apply the deformation properties of silicate rock as measured in these laboratory experiments to the scale and geometry of the earth's mantle to show that a catastrophic instability can indeed occur in a planet with the size and properties of the earth. My latest calculations are described in a paper presented at the Fifth International Conference on Creationism.
The purpose of this website is to collect into one place (1) a selection of the massive evidence that supports the reality of the Biblical Flood, (2) a clear description of a tectonic mechanism for this cataclysm as well as current modeling results, and (3) a collection of related materials that provide some of the context of the broader debate in which the issue of the Flood is only one facet.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by TrueCreation, posted 03-07-2004 3:41 PM TrueCreation has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024