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Author | Topic: Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
First the critics:
jar writes: I don't know about Chris, but the God I "market" is in no need of anyones respect. You keep trying to market a disgusting pathetic picayune psycopath of a god that is totally unworthy of any respect.Acts7:48 NKJV writes:
Also:
"However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
'Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the LORD, Or what is the place of My rest? Has My hand not made all these things?' "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Acts 17:24-34 NKJV writes: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, "We will hear you again on this matter." 33 So Paul departed from among them. Of course jar thinks that the God we market is one whom we have created. In fact, he is quite dismissive of the God whom Chris sees.
jar writes: jar markets a God whom was and is essentially created by human wisdom. He thus throws such a God away and invites the secular humanists to simply roll up their sleeeves and help do good at the local soup kitchen or prison. Additionally, it seems that many here at EvC are quite spiteful and in favor of total abolishment of the RCC. I've noticed that about liberals. They can be the most unforgiving people on the planet. Unless, of course...it is their own perverts whom they support.
Come on, if you are gonna quote quote it all. The lord you market is a disgusting pathetic picayune psyhcopath of a god that is totally unworthy of any respect.And yes, marketing Christ Crucified simply demeans and denigrates Jesus and makes his whole message totally worthless. It is disgusting that you pervert Jesus to such an extent. Dont let these folks anywhere near your kids either."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Have you not marketed GOD God and god?
Have you not stated that GOD is unknowable while we are living? Have you not asserted that humans are all universally charged to do what we intrinsically know to do based on human wisdom? Have you not told me to throw God away?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: So let me get this straight. Only those who claim to believe in Jesus are supposed to give it all up? I'm not the one who claims to "believe in Jesus". And while we are talking on Chris's page here, I'll be honest what I feel concerning Christianity. The early believers appeared to be 100% all in. They knew the power of the Risen Christ as well as knowing Him personally before He was crucified. In those first 300 years AD, the five churches were established in five major cities...Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Damascus. Or was it Ephesus? Anyway, Christianity was already becoming watered down...as many sought positions, prestige, and an excuse to go forth and conquer land and lands. It has always been true with humans. Even knowing God is never enough. We have an innate propensity to rebel and seek to raise ourselves up instead of Jesus. The RCC split from the other 4 cities in 1066, and was the major economic and political wing of Catholicism. Many of the early Popes were accused of being corrupt and/or driven by their own ambitions, but just as Jesus told Peter, the gates of hell never prevailed against the church because there were genuine strong moral (and spiritual) people within that Body.
quote: Collated USCCB DataOn the Number of U.S. Priests Accused of Sexually Abusing Children and the Numbers of Persons Alleging Abuse 1950—2018 This modern scandal is inexcusable and as bad as anything the early RCC faced, but it does not mean that the entire organisation should be disbanded. The church has a lot of educated and skilled members who are capable of helping many people. It seems that those of you who want them brought down have never acknowledged credibility to the competency of these members anyway. And as to the edict that you often push to sell all that one has, might I remind you that it was a rich young ruler who was advised to do such a thing. Nowhere is the implication that anyone of modest means should give up all they have and become poor simply to appease Jesus. Edited by Phat, : removed Constantinople and added Damascus to the list or the original five. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Note that I said you market a God...not a GOD. I suppose that whenever I paraphrase what you say, I then begin to lie. Keep in mind, however, that these issues are not solely the property of your framework. They are open to interpretation. I never knowing lie to anyone...but I may try and frame issues with favorably biased wording...so I suppose I'm guilty of that.
You love to slap me with charges of lying at every opportunity, however. Your style of argumentation is sophomoric and appropriate for a take-no-prisoners debate at an adolescent boarding school. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: I think that I should point out that the major scandal is not the number of child-abusing priests - bad as that is.The Roman Catholic Church covered up those crimes, protected the guilty and enabled them to repeat their crimes against more children. THAT is the biggest scandal, and it seems to me adequate reason for sanctions against the RCC. I can agree yet disagree with the remedy. It is similar to charging the US Government with reparations against...oh...lets say the Native Americans. As a government, they may well be guilty, but do you really expect the United States to disband all of the private property and modern day leases and claims simply to satisfy an ancient grudge? It won't happen nor should it for it would wreck the status quo of modern America. Same with the RCC. I will say, however, that they should acknowledge their sins....yet it likely is impossible to pay for that acknowledgement without destroying the entire church...much as Reparations may well destroy the US Government and a host of private interests. You liberals really need to stop telling the rest of us what we must do and when. We are not beholden to that type of authority. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This argument was never really investigated by me until now, and it basically brings up some larger arguments on the origins, validities, and overarching purpose of Christianity and whether the only real "Clubs" are the Catholic ones.
My search started at Catholic Answers. Was Peter In Rome? The tract basically spells out the ideas touted by Protestants and Catholic scholars alike as they discuss the establishment of the Papacy. Some points brought up:quote: I knew about the Five Cities where early Catholic Christianity began. I fully agree wwith jar that the word "Catholic" refers to the Body of Believers on earth and not the church in Rome. As a Protestant, I embrace the idea of one universal church yet would only add that I believe that not everyone who claimed membership was in fact a member. A member, I would assert, was one who had the Holy Spirit (as *all* in the upper room in Acts certainly had.) Later wolves in sheeps(or shepherds) clothing attempted to use the papacy and position within early organized religion to further their own carnal political and material lusts on planet earth. In taking a few courses in college on European History, I also saw the great seesaw struggle between Popes vs Kings and early Monarchs within Europe. The Protestant Reformation was initially a breath of fresh air for true be;lievers, (I know I sound like Faith! ) but it too later succumbed to the all-too-human tendency to shirk ones spirtual awareness in pursuit of earthly lusts. Down through the ages, the Church Universal, as I will call us in order to differentiate Catholicism from the pagan offshoots of the Ecclesiastic Body has survived to this day just as Jesus told Peter it would. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
So let me get this straight. Only those who claim to believe in Jesus are supposed to give it all up?Seriously? You have to ask that question? Indeed I do. Your colorful cursing shows me all I need to know about your emotional opinion on the matter!
ringo writes: Because what you believe and what I believe are no indication of reality. If GOD is more than a human concept and if Jesus is His Son, (and not Elmer Gantry) then if you expect to charge me with listening to Jesus, you darn well better do the same thing and sell that house of yours and go live in the shelter with the spare change artists. Perhaps universal socialism will take care of all of us, including the widow minus two mites.
The rich young ruler asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus answered, "Sell what you have and give to the poor." If I don't believe I need to be saved, how the @#$%ing hell does that apply to me? If I don't believe Jesus ever existed, why the @#$%ing hell would I do what He supposedly said? And if YOU believe He was real, why the @#$%ing hell don't YOU do what He said? Phat writes:
The early believers appeared to be 100% all in. They knew the power of the Risen Christ as well as knowing Him personally before He was crucified.ringo writes: By "early church" I meant the believers in Acts, the ones who gave all they had and laid it at the Apostles feet. Many of them had seen Jesus while He was alive in the flesh and most all of them certainly knew Peter. The scene could have been Jerusalem just as easily as it could have been Rome.
No, the Roman church did not know Jesus before He was crucified. Even Paul, who started the Roman church, did not know Jesus before He was crucified. They had the same source that you have, the supposed words of Jesus that were later recorded in the gospels. Phat writes:
Christianity was already becoming watered down...ringo writes: And how am I watering it down? By daring to keep my house for my shelter in life? Or by questioning Leftist politics?
How is that an excuse for you to keep watering it down? Phat writes:
And as to the edict that you often push to sell all that one has, might I remind you that it was a rich young ruler who was advised to do such a thing.ringo writes: How convenient it must be to hold the Christianss accountable to the message that they believe in while exempting yourself from that same message. If I give it all up *YOU* give it all up, Pal. The difference is, the socialists will make it a mandatory law. Jesus did not have the rich young ruler arrested for refusing to listen to Him.
It wasn't "advice". It was what he MUST do to be saved. And as I have told you before, it isn't about how much you give. It's about how much you hold back. The lady who gave two mites held back nothing. The widow who fed Elijah held back nothing. Ananias and Sapphira held back and they were killed for it. Phat writes:
Nowhere is the implication that anyone of modest means should give up all they have and become poor simply to appease Jesus.That's obviously false. The Roman church. jar corrected both of us. Note my post above. And note one thing about Peter mentioned in Catholic Answers:
quote:Peter was not simply some Bozo with a bullhorn trying to get money from the crowd. He had the Spirit. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: It makes no sense for the victim to be awarded the church building when the church building belongs to everyone in the church. Just as it would make no sense to award the social security trust funds to victims of early American oppression. Meanwhile, back in reality here on earth, Pope Francis is systematically hiding $2bn of assets across the USA in an attempt to restrict the amount of damages it has to pay to it's thousands of child rape victims. Lawyers and accountants are creating trusts, locking assets, marking-down down values (Often to zero) and moving accounts and finaces out of diocese. All very corporate America - institutional fraud following abuse."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im going to send you a private message. Look for it in this forum.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
One difference between you and I is that I have a definite need for a real relationship that transcends time and is essentially forever. Perhaps that need makes it easier for me to believe.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
dwise1 writes: That reminds me of Tangles argument to PRC about how non-catholics are surely going to hell. And that is the ultimate problem for theology. No matter how rigorously valid theologians may make their intricate logic, if the premises are not true then the conclusions cannot be accepted as being true. Even worse, if the the premises are not proven to be true, then the conclusions cannot be considered to be proven to be true. First, the evidence. I looked it up also, Tangle.
Catholics by Bradley Eli, M.Div., Ma.Th. Also CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCHSECOND EDITION Now the question. Are all Non-Catholics going to hell?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'm attempting to refocus several streams of conscious arguments over here in our Free For All thread with Chris. (You guys dont have to call him "whats his Catholic Name" anymore)
One question we have on the table is the issue of whether Non-Catholics will be saved. Another question along these same lines is whether everyone will make it or whether there are certain Spiritual Preconditions which a human must consciously and willfully do in order to escape the fate of animals and simply die and become fertilizer (or get sent to some place for rebellious souls) jar and ringo bring up the Parable Of The Rich Young Ruler and the Parable Of The Prodigal Son. And of course jar believes that Christianity is about what You Do versus what You Could Have Done---assuming there is a Judgement. Chris seemingly believes in a God of Mercy and that the Gates of Hell will never bring down the RCC. AZPaul3 says that Christian Idealism clashes with the Reality of Human Behavior. And Tangle attempts to hold Catholicism and Protestantism to the standards of the characters in the book and the written rules of the church. Lets continue."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: For starters, (and while we are being hypothetical) what if we all don't want to be there? Assuming that God forgave everyone on the planet for their sins (be they many or few,major or minor) we thus would know of Gods boundless Agape Love. But what of our ongoing nature? Does He fix that too or will we be our same imperfect selves inhabiting a perfect place? I thought it was all done. We got agape love from god now so his infinite love and infinite forgiveness clears all sins for all humans for all eternity. We all get in ... for free. So what is left to discuss? Will the Biden supporters remember why they hated Trump? Will the Trump supporters remember why they hated Biden? Will the freethinkers put up with the authority? Or will Heaven be a place of autonomy? Edited by Phat, : added points"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: Not true. He has it. Now, He may well save all of us should He so desire. Personally I believe that if such a reality as Hell ever existed or now exists, it was not intended to be a place for people. It was the result of the free choice of the angels who decided to break rank with God and the only reason humans would end up there is by following a different Vibe...or spirit and in so doing rejecting the Holy Spirit of the Risen Christ.
Tangle, you are missing the development here.We have agape love now. We all bask in the gentle warmth of god's infinite forgiving love. All is well. All is forgiven. Sin can be no more because all sin is forgiven by his infinite agape love. The prodigal son is welcomed back into loving arms once again. All shall ascend the golden stair, the blasphemous pedophile hand in hand with the jihadi. All humanity is finally embraced as one and all shall enjoy the life and the love eternal. Your tongue-in-cheek humor is intended to show us the silliness of organized religion and the idea of God, but it assumes that humans can remain the way that they are and have no worries. I believe that we need to change (or rather to allow the Holy Spirit to transform us) and that this all is designed to be a willful growth process.
Which means there is no longer a need for a church. What's a church going to do? Provide a sanctuary, teaching center and place of encouragement and physical help through food banks and rent vouchers. You will claim that this is the governments role.
Dissolve the church. Sell the assets. Give the proceeds to those poor whose agape love hasn't flourished into paying all the rent just yet. Not on my watch. I trust the governments ability to handle money even less than I do the church.
Like a Buddhist monk challenged to seek enlightenment you keep trying and praying to be christian but you just can't seem to levitate. Butt will just not leave the floor. I have always known that I could do little in and of myself. Granted I could be a good secular humanist and provide mental and physical comfort to needy people. But I seek more. I seek a connection with the galactic war between good and evil. Kinda like Star Wars.
Phat The Flying MonkTM is not going to happen. Your christian ideal is unrealistic, an exaggeration of a false reality and cannot be reached. Except, this case, divesting of all and walking the pauper's path in the glory of your god, is an example of false christian expectations. You cannot claim your seat in the choir by doing so because you realistically cannot do so. The expectation is not achievable. I knew that it never was. Thankfully Jesus did it. I know that I never could do it and likely would resist even trying. But this whole idea sprang from you guys and your interpretation of what Jesus wants from us(Christians) and conveniently not intended for you. For you could never do it either.
What other tenets of your faith are false, unobtainable? The promise of forever? Life after death? Infinite love, compassion and mercy? The resurrection? I could just as well ask you what tenets,if any, are true?
Those other leaps of faith are easy to make. They don't cost you anything to believe. But where do those expectations come from? Yes, you *do* bring up some challenging questions and issues. Thankfully for me, I dont believe that Christianity is graded entirely on works alone. I believe in Divine Grace. And that concept annoys a lot of people.
While examining the reality of the one tenet, Phat, there are several more for you to look at with the same critical eye. Almost there, Phat. Come over to the dark side. If I did, the whole place might light up. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Had to look the old comedian up.
How the comedian felt about God quote: Makes you wonder what turned him off to Catholicism. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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