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Author Topic:   How the Bible Actually Works
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 106 of 137 (890063)
12-23-2021 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
12-23-2021 3:03 PM


Re: About characters in books....
I'm sorry Phat but that is NOT a reasoned argument but rather just utter crap; particularly the attempt to tie it to the dollar bill.

It's snake-oil spiel like that that can only be taken seriously by the totally deluded ***** who are utterly divorced from all reasoning and reality.

And no one here is advocating humanist behavior to gain salvation or avoid damnation but rather simply because it is the only method that has been shown to work.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 12-23-2021 3:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 12-24-2021 8:32 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16102
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 137 (890064)
12-23-2021 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by AZPaul3
12-23-2021 3:41 PM


Re: About characters in books....
jar writes:

no one here is advocating humanist behavior to gain salvation or avoid damnation but rather simply because it is the only method that has been shown to work.

The jury is still out on whether or not it will ultimately work. I'll stick with my beliefs, thank you.
Tangle writes:

Your version of jesus is a charlatan.

You are not the first nor likely the last human who, wise in their own eyes, persecutes Jesus.

By far the most dangerous poster here though is jar. He preaches a gospel not found elsewhere. Most of you won't find out until later...hopefully not too late.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 3:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 4:22 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 109 by jar, posted 12-23-2021 4:22 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 112 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-23-2021 6:17 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 12-24-2021 11:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 108 of 137 (890065)
12-23-2021 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-23-2021 4:06 PM


Re: About characters in books....
By far the most dangerous poster here though is jar.

Oh, absolutely! He is a grave danger.

(jar: I'm going to put words in your mouth. Feel free to spit them back out)

jar is a believer. He won't fill in the detail because he knows he'd be wrong. He even admits that the basics of his belief are probably wrong. Yet, he feels the deep inner need to believe. He got hit in the head by religion that knocked a few screws loose but the intellect is intact. He hasn't crumbled into hopeless delusion as have you.

Such honesty is indeed a danger to your thoughts, Phat, because jar is right.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-23-2021 4:06 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(6)
Message 109 of 137 (890066)
12-23-2021 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-23-2021 4:06 PM


The most dangerous gospel ...
Phat writes:

By far the most dangerous poster here though is jar. He preaches a gospel not found elsewhere.

Yup; preaching a gospel that says folk should feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, clothe the naked, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, heal the sick is certainly the most dangerous thing we face today.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-23-2021 4:06 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by vimesey, posted 12-23-2021 4:59 PM jar has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(3)
Message 110 of 137 (890067)
12-23-2021 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
12-22-2021 10:30 AM


Re: About characters in books....
jar writes:

Throw God Away.

Phat writes:

In my mind, a search for validating a belief does not involve the critically thinking step of attempting to falsify the search.

Well it should be. Testing the null set, the null hypothesis, is a vital step in any epistemology. To put it in your terms, failing to do so means you don’t care to search for truth.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 10:30 AM Phat has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1332
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 111 of 137 (890068)
12-23-2021 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by jar
12-23-2021 4:22 PM


Re: The most dangerous gospel ...
Sentiments that as an atheist I 100% share with you jar.

Good people are good people, irrespective of their creed, beliefs or lack of them. The world needs more good people.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 12-23-2021 4:22 PM jar has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3437
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 112 of 137 (890072)
12-23-2021 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-23-2021 4:06 PM


Re: About characters in books....
You really are messed up man.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-23-2021 4:06 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16102
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 137 (890082)
12-24-2021 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
12-23-2021 3:41 PM


Re: About characters in books....
Why don't you just be honest and call yourself an atheist? You have failed to declare what exactly it is (in the way of a Deity) that you believe in. God is more than just a symbol, but focusing on Him is preferable to focusing on a molten core, a distant galaxy, or a hope limited to other humans.

Think about it.

  • You belong to a club that has a history of ritualism and ceremony.
    I note that you never mention the day-by-day relevance of this ritual apart from a shared experience with others. I know that I, for one, would consider the BCP as relevant ONLY if I believed that GOD not only existed but in some way heard our prayers and shared His time with our human experience. An absentee God is no better for mental health than an absentee human father.

    Granted religion has historically been destructive, though one could argue that it got te United States through two World Wars.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 106 by jar, posted 12-23-2021 3:41 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 114 by jar, posted 12-24-2021 9:10 AM Phat has replied
     Message 118 by ringo, posted 12-24-2021 11:07 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33957
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.0


    (1)
    Message 114 of 137 (890083)
    12-24-2021 9:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
    12-24-2021 8:32 AM


    Re: About characters in books....
    Phat writes:

    Why don't you just be honest and call yourself an atheist?

    Because that would be lying Phat. I believe there is a GOD and that I will be judged after my death.

    Phat writes:

    God is more than just a symbol, but focusing on Him is preferable to focusing on a molten core, a distant galaxy, or a hope limited to other humans.

    You keep asserting that Phat but is there evidence of a molten core, of distant galaxies or other humans that actually DO help?

    Have you ever actually read the Bible Phat? Did God build the Ark? During the Exodus did the people have to walk, to gather the mana, the honey, the wild partridges and prepare the food themselves? Did God harvest the surplus, build the granaries, store the surplus and distribute it to the needy? Did God gather up the surplus at the fish fry and distribute it to the hungry? Did Jesus tell us to feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, clothe the naked, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, heal the sick?

    The Bible from beginning to end tells people that it is up to them to actually do.

    Phat writes:

    You belong to a club that has a history of ritualism and ceremony.

    What is the purpose of ritualism and ceremony? Do you even know the basics?

    But then, in the very same paragraph you mention the BCP (Book of Common Prayer). Again, you are simply showing your utter ********* Phat.
    The BCP is a tool designed to be used by both the clergy and the individual, something to guide one's daily life and devotions with morning and evening prayer, a liturgy designed for the individual rather than the priest, to set each day in motion with a concentration on one's duty to others and to end each day's efforts with an honest evaluation of your individual performance. It even has daily readings that cover the whole Bible in a three-year cycle.

    So, I ask you yet again; "How is preaching a gospel that says folk should feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, clothe the naked, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, heal the sick the most dangerous thing we face today or the most dangerous thing on this board?"

    AbE:

    Phat writes:

    Granted religion has historically been destructive, though one could argue that it got te United States through two World Wars.

    I'd love to see you or anyone else try to present a reasoned argument that supports that assertion.

    Remember that Germany and Italy and Japan and Poland and Austria and the US and England were ALL religious. And the majority were also Christian.

    Edited by jar, : fix grammar

    Edited by jar, : see the Abe for a chuckle or three.


    My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 113 by Phat, posted 12-24-2021 8:32 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 115 by Phat, posted 12-24-2021 10:53 AM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 16102
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 115 of 137 (890085)
    12-24-2021 10:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 114 by jar
    12-24-2021 9:10 AM


    ian? an? Re: About characters in books....
    jar writes:

    It is a conclusion Phat rather than a presumption. Can you even understand the difference between those two words and concepts?

    Sure.

    Websters,Presumption writes:

    : an attitude or belief dictated by probability : assumption
    b : the ground, reason, or evidence lending probability to a belief
    3 : a legal inference as to the existence or truth of a fact not certainly known that is drawn from the known or proved existence of some other fact

    Thinking you are going to win at poker is a presumption. (since you lost three other times in a row)
    Websters,Conclusion writes:

    : a final decision or judgment : an opinion or decision that is formed after a period of thought or research.
    : the last part of something : end
    : a reasoned judgment : inference The obvious conclusion is that she was negligent.
    b : the necessary consequence of two or more propositions taken as premises especially : the inferred proposition of a syllogism

    So how is it obvious that GOD is unknowable? How is it obvious (and why only to you, unique among Christians) that Jesus life was more important than His death? Why do you conclude that there is no way to know if you hear Jesus in your conscience or that Jesus has a still small voice prompting you to better behavior when you pray? And would your still small voice of conscience stop you from saying things to others such as calling them stupid and repeatedly asking them if they ever read the Bible?

    jar writes:

    So, I ask you yet again; "How is preaching a gospel that says folk should feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, clothe the naked, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, heal the sick the most dangerous thing we face today or the most dangerous thing on this board?"

    It's not that stuff. Its when you say to "throw God away". It's when you fail to emphasize Jesus as God or that a relationship with Jesus is not only possible but useful...like the BCP. I have heard His still small voice. Perhaps it is just my conscience, though I'm far too selfish, greedy, and fearful of losing everything I have, life included, to attribute the still small voice to myself. You always ask how anyone would *know* that the voice was that of God. For one thing, the voice will never tell you to hate. The voice will never tell you to hold onto money...it always prompts you to give. (although it NEVER tells you to gamble )
    Galatians 5 reminds us that the desires of the Spirit are ALWAYS contrary to the desires of the flesh.
    jar writes:

    Remember that Germany and Italy and Japan and Poland and Austria and the US and England were ALL religious. And the majority were also Christian.


    Is the majority of the Republican Party Christian? Do they resemble the Christians in the US during both wars? Did German Christians prevent the rise of Hitler? (and don't lie to us and tell us Hitler was Christian. You will know them by their fruits. ) Did Japanese religion even count towards anything positive? (Although Hirohito *did* help end the war for them) Douglas MacArthur was a "bigger" god than Hirohito!

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by jar, posted 12-24-2021 9:10 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by jar, posted 12-24-2021 11:11 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 120 by ringo, posted 12-24-2021 11:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 121 by dwise1, posted 12-24-2021 9:49 PM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19771
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.9


    (1)
    Message 116 of 137 (890086)
    12-24-2021 10:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
    12-23-2021 3:03 PM


    Re: About characters in books....
    Phat writes:

    I am unafraid to question God, but I never have doubts.


    You contradict yourself.

    Phat writes:

    It is you guys who keep trying to introduce doubts into my thought process.


    Doubting everything should be automatic. If you have no doubts, it isn't really a thought process.

    Phat writes:

    See? This scripture not only mentions Jesus as the chief cornerstone....


    Hello? You're the guy who rejects the dusty old book. How dare you use it as your argument?

    Phat writes:

    I realize that you have been right all along regarding my need to listen to Jesus. I am simply challenging you in regards to doing the same rather than throwing away God's Son simply to be humanist imitations of the Creator.


    I didn't "throw away" God's Son. He never existed.

    Phat writes:

    ....but I suppose you could argue that following the message will prevent your damnation.


    The only damnation is you damning the people you're supposed to help - and in the process damning yourself to an empty, paranoid life. Look out! Demons to the left of you! Demons to the right of you! Demons in front of you! Who needs more damnation than that?

    Phat writes:

    For the record, I believe that if hell exists, the only way we would end up there is by us rejecting the message.


    So why do you still reject the message?

    "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
    -- Lucky Ned Pepper

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 104 by Phat, posted 12-23-2021 3:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19771
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.9


    (1)
    Message 117 of 137 (890087)
    12-24-2021 11:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
    12-23-2021 4:06 PM


    Re: About characters in books....
    Phat writes:

    The jury is still out on whether or not it will ultimately work.


    It doesn't matter if it will "ultimately" work (if that even means anything). It works on a day-to-day basis. Helping the less fortunate IS to your benefit. If nothing else, it saves the taxpayer the expense of getting the dead bodies off the street.

    "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
    -- Lucky Ned Pepper

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-23-2021 4:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19771
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.9


    Message 118 of 137 (890089)
    12-24-2021 11:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
    12-24-2021 8:32 AM


    Re: About characters in books....
    Phat writes:

    You have failed to declare what exactly it is (in the way of a Deity) that you believe in.


    You persist in missing the point: Belief is not exact.

    "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
    -- Lucky Ned Pepper

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 113 by Phat, posted 12-24-2021 8:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33957
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.0


    Message 119 of 137 (890090)
    12-24-2021 11:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
    12-24-2021 10:53 AM


    I ask you yet again if you have ever read the Bible Phat.
    First, please note that absolutely nothing in your whole post actually addressed anything I posted in the message to which you replied.

    Phat writes:

    Is the majority of the Republican Party Christian?

    Yes, it seems so; and it seems they directly resemble the Christians that supported Hitler.

    Really Phat, please try to learn the basics. Hitler was a Christian, raised as a Christian and there was even an official Nazi Christian Chapter of Club Christian.

    Now rather than continuing your mental masturbation, perhaps you could actually address the issues I raised in Message 114?


    My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by Phat, posted 12-24-2021 10:53 AM Phat has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19771
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.9


    Message 120 of 137 (890091)
    12-24-2021 11:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
    12-24-2021 10:53 AM


    Re: ian? an? Re: About characters in books....
    Phat writes:

    (and don't lie to us and tell us Hitler was Christian. You will know them by their fruits. )


    Read your Bible. That passage (Matthew 7: 15-20) warns of false prophets. You should be testing the people who feed you your doctrines - by their fruits.

    Notice also that that passage continues, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." You have to DO the will of God, not just claim to believe.

    And it continues... to say that He never knew those who do not DO. You have to believe in DOING.

    And it continues... with the parable of the house built on solid rock and the house built on sand - i.e. if your beliefs are not built an a firm foundation, they will do you no good.


    "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
    -- Lucky Ned Pepper

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by Phat, posted 12-24-2021 10:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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