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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 366 of 391 (885922)
04-29-2021 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by ringo
04-28-2021 4:12 PM


Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
ringo writes:

The whole idea of a God is empty. The idea that he would commune with you is emptier.

Im puzzled why you felt this way. Once I got zapped, I never felt the same since. I feel empty occasionally for other reasons but never anything involving God.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by ringo, posted 04-28-2021 4:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by ringo, posted 04-29-2021 10:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 368 of 391 (885930)
04-29-2021 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by dwise1
04-29-2021 6:19 AM


dwise1 writes:

I want every exchange to be fully public. Wanting to keep such exchanges private is a sure sign of the desire to deceive.

I have to know somebody for awhile before sending or receiving private messages and upon reflection I think I agree with you here. My one exception to this rule is prayer. I do not share my prayers so casually. And if God (or Whom I believed to be God) had something to share with me, it would be meditated upon in my inner conscience and shared later, after reflection and inner processing. At that point it would be my own thoughts anyway.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by dwise1, posted 04-29-2021 6:19 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by dwise1, posted 04-29-2021 1:06 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 371 of 391 (885959)
04-29-2021 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by ringo
04-29-2021 10:49 AM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
Phat writes:

Once I got zapped, I never felt the same since.


ringo writes:

You were told you should feel that way and you were eager to feel that way.

I was only told that Christians had to become born again in order to be genuine. I recall that I never gave it much thought as I thought that I was already "Christian Enough"...having been raised in the religion and having discussed God before. I was never full aware that there was another level until I was in the process of feeling and experiencing that level.

Feelings are a slippery thing. We can convince ourselves to feel a certain way. But feelings don't determine reality.
So you guys have taught me. Actions determine authenticity. But we were taught that actions in and of themselves were simply actions....works, if you will. A good catholic may dutifully make up a bunch of sandwiches to feed the homeless yet not have a clue who GOD was and is apart from the bells, smells, and icons to pray to. Likewise, a "good" Protestant may seek to fit in by whooping, hollering, shouting amen! amen! and running around the building waving a prayer hankie. Yet they may have a God or Jesus in their head unlike the original.

Perhaos a white Jesus. A Conservative Jesus. Or as ringo suggests I have, a nice favoring and generous Jesus Who expects me to be honest and compromising. God forbid I actually had to give it all up! ringo charges me with making Him up. I didnt write the book, however. I believe that even if there were no book, Jesus could and would meet me where I am at. There lies the battle, the demons and the character or lack of same.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by ringo, posted 04-29-2021 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by nwr, posted 04-29-2021 10:40 PM Phat has replied
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 04-30-2021 11:21 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 373 of 391 (885961)
04-29-2021 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by nwr
04-29-2021 10:40 PM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
Much of what you believe does not come from the book. It has been spoon fed to you by religious con men.
I've thought about this.

First, I know now that I have been exposed to and conned by "religious con men."

I believed in them and in their image,reputation, and seeming integrity. Ravi Zacharias is a great example. At the time, I never questioned his actions..(those which I could even see or hear) and was quite defensive when EvC Members such as jar, ringo, and Theodoric (especially Theodoric) denounced him. As it turned out, I ate a heaping helping of crow once Theodorics accusations became mainstream.

That being said, I never lumped all of the apologists employed by RZIM Ministries (who are planning to change their name, publicly renounce Ravi and rebrand) into the conman pool. The EvC Peanut Gallery is by and large far more skeptical...especially of Christianity in the United States at least. Our Texas Ranger, Jar, has long warned his audience about Biblical Christians (as opposed to traditional Christians of the non-woo and evidence based thinking approach.

You don't speak up very much, but I remember years ago when you would visit jar and myself in chat. Anglagard is another whom thinks similar to you and jar.

Still, I have adopted my beliefs from my intuition. If anything, I am conning myself by doing this and am fully aware that I will be judged by what I do versus what I could have done in this life. One reason that I continue to hang out here at Percys Forum is because I get challenged. And I believe that it has made me stronger in my faith, if one can even weigh such things.

Currently, I stand on several principals.
1) Jeus Christ rose from the dead. The Trinity is a deep yet valid way to frame my belief. There is One God (not many as has been argued) there is (or was) One human character whom was more than simply a prophet or a guru/wiseman type of human. I believe that He was in full Communion with the Creator of all seen and unseen.

We have access to Him (GOD) now because of Jesus, and because the Holy Spirit (Comforter, Teacher, Presence) is here with us on earth. I fault no one here at EvC for thinking or believing differently. I most certainly have not arrived or as yet been Sanctified. As our Forum Guidelines state, The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person. . Feel free to keep challenging me, as I would expect nothing less at EvC.

Edited by Phat, : better worded after sleeping on it.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by nwr, posted 04-29-2021 10:40 PM nwr has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 375 of 391 (885968)
04-30-2021 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by ringo
04-30-2021 11:21 AM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
ringo writes:

I have hardly ever heard a sermon where they didn't tell you how wonderful and joyous it is to be "saved". The hymns do it too.

I got saved the first month before I ever even learned the buzzwords and catchphrases. Charismatic (Charismaniacal) Christianity became an addiction only after I got saved and after I went from believing about God and Jesus to actually feeling as if I had met them in my inner spirit. The feeling of communion with Him was the prerequisite. I actually avoided spending much time with the Biblical Christians...Charismatics All. Its also why I rarely talked to Faith. I couldn't handle the belief of a young earth and an alternate science. And I felt as if she had too much pride and certainty that she and she alone was right about things. Do I come across the same way? If so I dont see it...but I have an idea that I am at times arrogant.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 04-30-2021 11:21 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by ringo, posted 04-30-2021 2:37 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 376 of 391 (885970)
04-30-2021 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by ringo
04-30-2021 11:21 AM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
ringo writes:

You don't even believe the book, so your Jesus must be made up.

Will you stop saying that!The only part which I have publicly challenged you on is the idea that all Christians are taught to give everything up. It is simply crazy. Besides, why are only we called to do it? Thats not very fair is it.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 04-30-2021 11:21 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by AZPaul3, posted 04-30-2021 1:30 PM Phat has seen this message
 Message 378 by anglagard, posted 04-30-2021 1:40 PM Phat has seen this message
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 04-30-2021 2:53 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 383 of 391 (891090)
01-16-2022 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by dwise1
03-12-2021 5:39 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
dwise1 writes:

Correctness would of course depend on getting things right, so being false would be the opposite, namely getting things wrong. I would think that we can all agree to that.

But are we requiring (or trying to claim) that a religion get absolutely everything right in order to qualify as "correct"? Or can it get some things right and also some things wrong and still qualify as "correct"?

By the same token, are we requiring (or trying to claim) that a religion get absolutely everything wrong in order to qualify as "false"? Or can it get some things wrong but still get some things right (however few) and still qualify as "false"?

Until we can agree on some kind of standards to proper rate religions, then Phat's claim (or hypothetical scenario) of "out of many religions only one is correct" is so meaningless as to not even come within sight of becoming an assertion.

So to start with, we have to have some sort of consensus on what *is* right and what *is* wrong.
Beyond that, my initial assertion would claim that there is One GOD and that Jesus among humans was the one closest to (or identical to) His basic nature and code of ethics.
One assumption, too, is that GOD has a better grasp of what morality should entail than do humans.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by dwise1, posted 03-12-2021 5:39 PM dwise1 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Tangle, posted 01-16-2022 4:25 PM Phat has taken no action
 Message 386 by jar, posted 01-16-2022 4:43 PM Phat has seen this message
 Message 387 by ringo, posted 01-17-2022 11:16 AM Phat has seen this message
 Message 388 by Theodoric, posted 01-17-2022 12:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 384 of 391 (891091)
01-16-2022 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by jar
04-30-2021 3:01 PM


Re: Read the Book(s)
I must concede my arguments. You and ringo are basically correct in that Jesus, the character in the book (if not in reality) does say that the godly in Christ will suffer. Nothing is going to be easy...any easier than it was for all of the Apostles martyred for their faith.

It is humbling to think that a bunch of atheists and critical thinkers could see this even while saying that there is no evidence for God.

|And I have to fight off the envy that I MUST do it while *you* don't have to give it all up.

My faith is being challenged and tested these days.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 04-30-2021 3:01 PM jar has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 389 of 391 (891127)
01-18-2022 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Theodoric
01-17-2022 12:03 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Topic Starter from Message 1
quote:
For those of you who pray and who believe that you are having a conversation with God (an entity that you believe is living and aware and that is outside of your conscience, strictly speaking)
perhaps you could share some of the dynamics of the prayers, mantras, and conversations. I realize that for some of us this is an important and personal thing, so let's keep the jokes limited to ourselves.
Note that I started this topic in 2006, when I was a bit saner than my frazzled old self is currently. Times are different now in that I am a bit less spiritual and a bit more reactive and snippy due to changes in the world-at-large, the demise of the United States (My Uncle Sam who I always counted on to take care of me rather than becoming a liberal stoolie trying to please all of the people globally as well as nationally) and my own aging and inability to take care of myself as well as I need to do. So let's review the questions I originally asked, my answers to them, and my reactions throughout this topic to my EvC foils.
So....during prayer and meditation...
  • What do you ask and/or talk about? I am as honest as I can be with myself when praying. I realize that if I am not careful I will drift off and ask God(Jesus) to help "me me me" and my conscience usually kicks in and changes my requests and introspections more towards how I can help others.
  • Do you hear answers or feel inner confirmation in any way? God does not simply reply to me through an inner audible voice. All I can really say is that the more that I pray, the more I realize how much more I need to do as an individual and member of a community at large.
  • Does the action of communication with God change you in any way? I would say that prayer always leads me towards change, but I find myself in an inner conflict between what my flesh wants and what my inner spirit knows I need to do. Note that I answered these questions a bit differently in 2006. Message 3

    I think that my answers were more introspective then than they are now. I am old and scared. If anything, my prayers are more humble now than they were in 2006, even though my outer personality is more selfish and desperate.

    One question that I have currently for Theodoric and his charge that my entire inner and outer personality is based on assumptions is how does this differ from anybody else? Facts can only take you so far. Also, I try and separate my spiritual beliefs from carnal Republican philosophies.

    EvC helps me to confront what I don't like to confront...namely selfishness, greed, irrational hatred, or bitterness towards things that I don't consider fair or right.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 388 by Theodoric, posted 01-17-2022 12:03 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 390 by nwr, posted 01-18-2022 10:30 AM Phat has taken no action
     Message 391 by Theodoric, posted 01-18-2022 11:17 AM Phat has taken no action

      
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