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Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Independent Historical Corroboration for Biblical Events | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I'm curious to know (and I've asked this in many discussions elsewhere
without much luck) if anyone knows of historial writings or evidence which corroborates any of the events of the bible. By corroboration I mean unequivecable corroboration. I ask for this reason :: much of the conviction of creationistsagainst evolution, abiogenesis, etc. is founded in the belief that the bible is a complete and accurate record of ancient events. I would like to know if this belief has a foundation in testablecross-corroboration, or is a matter of faith.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I think the eruption thing is a bit too indirect for what I
was looking for, although not entirely out. Some of the info. on the web-site that you pointed to (and TC didalso) are quite interesting. Personally I'd have to be very skeptical about the Summerian KingList. The recording of stories similar to those in the bible by an earlier text (probably fictional in itself) speaks more of deliberately assimilating pre-existing religions (as the early christians did) in order to be a more popular religous choice. The invasion of Ashdod is a better one for me. Its a recordof a major military action that is also recorded elsewhere. I wonder if the timing of this event has been calculated usingthe same genaelogy as the Earth Age calculation ? Comparing that to the archealogical date would be interesting I feel. Shishak ... that one's more problematic since I don't think thereis a specific reference to a Shishak in Eygtian writings ... I believe the wall carvings are about one of the Ramses, whose personal name in Egypt was Sheshank. I saw a program on this once .. a while ago .. so I admit I may be in error here. And talking of the existence of Jesus..
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott_oser/hojfaq.html http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_TAL.html http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusi.html http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusi.html http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/lucian.html My main problem (apart from the apparent bias on BOTH sidesby the authors of the above) is that ALL of these accounts come from a substantial time after Jesus' crucifiction date, and we do not know the original sources. They are, however, better than the claims for old testamentveracity. In essence I am convinced that early christians claimedthe founder of their cult to be Christ, the son of God. None of the extra-biblical writers I have read say otherwise, but their sources are unknown, and verification of the existence of a teacher named Jesus are lacking. Old Testament verifications are cited largely as real places,or large scale historical events (invasions etc). Inclusion of these is a common story telling technique. What about references to Moses, the exodus, or such ? Thesewere big events ... wouldn't they be recorded besides the bible ?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: What ignorance are you referring to ? There are many aspects of the Bible stories that are echoesof Sumerian writings, and of the Hindu Vedas ... both of which pre-date the bible by several thousand years. The Hindu Vedas seem to stem from the mysterious Indus Valleycivilisation, which was at a high point around 8000 years ago (I think). There is emerging evidence in marine archeology of a high civilisationwhich was mature at the end of the last ice age, around 11000 years ago. Many of it's cities are thought to have been deluged by cataclysmic flooding brought on by glacial breakdown. Coastal cities I might add ... not globally in land. If this line of research is born out in the next decade orso we may find that the original events that gave rise to the Noah story ocurred some 11000 years ago, when man had existed in his current form (more or less, and according to Old earth timescales) for 100,000 years. You demand PROOF of evolution, is it not hypocritical to claimthe accuracy of the bible without providing independent historical corroboration for the events told in it ? Surely some Egyptian records should exist which talk of Moses,after all he was an Egyptian prince ? Or at least a wall or two from the right date which showsthat someone has been scrubbed from the records ? This must have happened at a dynastic change over since Pharoahsson was killed (the first passover), and Pharoah drowned in the red sea. Surely such an event would have been recorded by that Pharoah'ssuccessors ?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I've had a look and found that there is quite a weight of
argument against Velikovsky ... a man who also suggested that venus was shot out from Jupiter and caused the plagues of Egypt and the sinking of atlantis. This link:: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1326/hatshepsut.html contains a critique of Velikovsky's contention that Hatshepsutwas the queen of Sheba, and seems fairly convincing to me. I'm still checking up on the Ipuwer stuff, but that wouldplace the Exodus at 1500 BCE (I believe) ... does anyone know how that ties in with literal Biblical dating ?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I found this translation of the Ipuwer writings ::
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/ipuwer.htm And don't find it compelling in terms of the plaguesand exodus I'm afraid. Anyone else care to have a look and offer an opinion ?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: I'm reading the link you gave now (as I get the chance to), andfind it interesting. I saw part of a documentary series on TV in the UK some time ago that was putting forward a similar (or maybe the same) revision to the Egyptian chronology. Having read the Admonitions of Ipuwer translation that I foundon the web (link posted previously) I'm still not convinced on that one. The only real link is this 'river of blood' thing (indidentlythe translation in the the link you gave (as a quote) and the one I've found are different) seems to be talking about the unrest that's going on and about so many bodies in the river that its running red with blood. There is little apart from that to tie this to the plagues inExodus. And even that is a little flimsy (in my opinion). The dating stuff is better for me, as it allows for lookingfor events in Egyptian records that tie in to Biblical chronology. Did the egyptians have a flood myth (should probably say 'story')too ?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
This link::
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dgarneau/euro18.htm Might proove interesting in the context of this thread. It's about the era supposedly of the Exodus, and mentions,amongst other things, that the jewish one-God concept most likely originated in Egypt as the worship of Aten (founded by tutankhamun's dad Ahkenaten). From a historical perspective, it appears, that a majority ofscholars view the scriptural exodus as an exaggerated/elaborated version of events which probably happened much more gently.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I've read many possibilities for the sources of the
flood myths. I was really looking for something which directlycorroborates the literal interpretation of the Bible. I doubt it really exists ... but I'm always open to evidence.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
This is the kind of evidence that bothers me most.
Find some tunnels in a city where a bible story saysthey were built ... does that corroborate the bible ? Not unless there is some evidence of the builder beingthe same person and the dates being right. My line of argument is roughly that fiction will use factto make it more realistic and accessible to the reader. I need references to the characters in the bible, not justcities. Not even Jesus gets a direct mention, apart from when historiansare talking about christian beliefs. I don't doubt the existence of christians a word???) of the bible.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: That's definitely what I'm looking for then!!
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
That's always been my reasoning ... and it's why I would need
more than a single event/person combination. Even then it's the significant events in the bible that needcorroboration from independent sources. Without that I don't see how anyone can accept the Bible as fact rather than fiction. I don't know of any other text that, alone and without independentverification, is considered fact. The Iliad is about the siege of Troy, and has features that can be correlated to archeological finds, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that there was in fact a near invulnerable warrior involved in the proceedings.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Little confused here .... according to the new chronology
the 1st dynasty started in 2781BC ... that is 4783 years ago ... but the great flood is supposed to have happened 4500 years ago. How does that help biblical chronology ?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Not sure what impression I have given here, but
I tend to agree ... there may be aspects recorded within the bible which bear relation to real events and persons. That doesn't make the entire bible literally true/correct. Since this discussion is about the orgin of diversity oflife I guess we should focuss on the accuracy of Genesis. This largely comes down to verifying the Great Flood (which initself doesn't verify the whole of Genesis, but hey-ho!) And yes, the version of Noah's flood in KJV does say that thewaters rose 15 cubits to cover the mountains.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Which Romans ? (Not saying you wrong I just would like to know )
I agree with the mythic/legendary interpretation. YEC's appear unwilling to consider this ... why I do notknow.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I knew that people talking about christianity
mentioned these things (like Josephus and such) but didn't realise they were mentioned without the biblical references.
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