Independent Historical Corroboration for Biblical Events

I'm curious to know (and I've asked this in many discussions elsewhere
without much luck) if anyone knows of historial writings or evidence
which corroborates any of the events of the bible.By corroboration I mean unequivecable corroboration.I ask for this reason :: much of the conviction of creationists
against evolution, abiogenesis, etc. is founded in the belief
that the bible is a complete and accurate record of ancient
events.I would like to know if this belief has a foundation in testable
cross-corroboration, or is a matter of faith.

I think the eruption thing is a bit too indirect for what I
was looking for, although not entirely out.Some of the info. on the web-site that you pointed to (and TC did
also) are quite interesting.Personally I'd have to be very skeptical about the Summerian King
List. The recording of stories similar to those in the bible
by an earlier text (probably fictional in itself) speaks more
of deliberately assimilating pre-existing religions (as the
early christians did) in order to be a more popular religous choice.The invasion of Ashdod is a better one for me. Its a record
of a major military action that is also recorded elsewhere.I wonder if the timing of this event has been calculated using
the same genaelogy as the Earth Age calculation ? Comparing that
to the archealogical date would be interesting I feel.Shishak ... that one's more problematic since I don't think there
is a specific reference to a Shishak in Eygtian writings ... I
believe the wall carvings are about one of the Ramses, whose
personal name in Egypt was Sheshank. I saw a program on this
once .. a while ago .. so I admit I may be in error here.And talking of the existence of Jesus..
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott_oser/hojfaq.html
http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_TAL.html
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusi.html
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusi.html
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/lucian.htmlMy main problem (apart from the apparent bias on BOTH sides
by the authors of the above) is that ALL of these accounts
come from a substantial time after Jesus' crucifiction date,
and we do not know the original sources.They are, however, better than the claims for old testament
veracity.In essence I am convinced that early christians claimed
the founder of their cult to be Christ, the son of God.
None of the extra-biblical writers I have read say otherwise,
but their sources are unknown, and verification of the
existence of a teacher named Jesus are lacking.Old Testament verifications are cited largely as real places,
or large scale historical events (invasions etc). Inclusion
of these is a common story telling technique.What about references to Moses, the exodus, or such ? These
were big events ... wouldn't they be recorded besides the bible ?

quote:

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"Actually,all this goes to show is that the old testament of the Bible is filled with recycled myths from earlier cultures."
--Hm... You still just can't get yourself to suffice your ignorance on the situation, or did I just not see your statement (I'll close my eyes and you can get rid of it if you like). As you said yourself it is not 'iron clad' and it defenantly is not valid here. Furthermore, I found 80 million year old cow menuer in my back yard, guess the disproves Evolution! (please, give support for your assertions, I have been waiting for well over a month now).

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What ignorance are you referring to ?There are many aspects of the Bible stories that are echoes
of Sumerian writings, and of the Hindu Vedas ... both of
which pre-date the bible by several thousand years.The Hindu Vedas seem to stem from the mysterious Indus Valley
civilisation, which was at a high point around 8000 years ago
(I think).There is emerging evidence in marine archeology of a high civilisation
which was mature at the end of the last ice age, around 11000 years
ago. Many of it's cities are thought to have been deluged by
cataclysmic flooding brought on by glacial breakdown.Coastal cities I might add ... not globally in land.If this line of research is born out in the next decade or
so we may find that the original events that gave rise to the
Noah story ocurred some 11000 years ago, when man had existed
in his current form (more or less, and according to Old earth timescales) for 100,000 years.You demand PROOF of evolution, is it not hypocritical to claim
the accuracy of the bible without providing independent historical
corroboration for the events told in it ?Surely some Egyptian records should exist which talk of Moses,
after all he was an Egyptian prince ?Or at least a wall or two from the right date which shows
that someone has been scrubbed from the records ?This must have happened at a dynastic change over since Pharoahs
son was killed (the first passover), and Pharoah drowned in
the red sea.Surely such an event would have been recorded by that Pharoah's
successors ?

I've had a look and found that there is quite a weight of
argument against Velikovsky ... a man who also suggested that
venus was shot out from Jupiter and caused the plagues
of Egypt and the sinking of atlantis.This link:: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1326/hatshepsut.htmlcontains a critique of Velikovsky's contention that Hatshepsut
was the queen of Sheba, and seems fairly convincing to me.I'm still checking up on the Ipuwer stuff, but that would
place the Exodus at 1500 BCE (I believe) ... does anyone know
how that ties in with literal Biblical dating ?

I found this translation of the Ipuwer writings ::
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/ipuwer.htmAnd don't find it compelling in terms of the plagues
and exodus I'm afraid.Anyone else care to have a look and offer an opinion ?

quote:

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Originally posted by dreaded s flynn:
Yes, velikovsky certainly had some interesting ideas (such as his ideas re: venus).
However I think his point that either the conventional egyptian chronology or the biblical one is out by about 600 years is well put. At least one of them must be wrong.
finding 'firm ground' with the traditional egyption chronology has its problems though, as George Rawlinson noted over a century ago.
"it is a patent fact and one that is beginning to obtain general recognition, that the chronological element in early Egyptian history is in a state of almost hopeless obscurity" of the documents and monuments he said, "The chronological value of these variuous sources of information, is however in every case slight. the great defect of these monuments is their incompleteness. the egyptians ahd no era> tey drew out no chronological schemes. they cared for nothing but to know how long each incarnate god, human or bovine, had condescended to tarry on the earth. they recorded carefully the length of the life of each apsi bull, and the length of the reign of each king; but they neglected to take note of the interval between one apis bull and another, and ommitted to distinguish the sole reign of a monarch from his joint reign with others."
a history of egypt II ols Vol II pages 1-2.
Now admittedly much more has come to light since then, but the chronological problems may be cultural.
( I am also curious as to his claim they 'had no era' and how this relates to their sothic cycle).

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But the point is that there are problems preferring the conventional chronology.

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An interesting article (very recently published) I came across just now may be worth reading, but take note that they do give credence (as i do) to at least some of velikovskys work and the ipuwer papyrus)

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I should also disclose that I presuppose the reliabilty of the scriptural record a priori.

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Any way enjoy....sean
http://www.ldolphin.org/montgochron.html

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I'm reading the link you gave now (as I get the chance to), and
find it interesting. I saw part of a documentary series on
TV in the UK some time ago that was putting forward a similar
(or maybe the same) revision to the Egyptian chronology.Having read the Admonitions of Ipuwer translation that I found
on the web (link posted previously) I'm still not convinced
on that one.The only real link is this 'river of blood' thing (indidently
the translation in the the link you gave (as a quote) and
the one I've found are different) seems to be talking about
the unrest that's going on and about so many bodies in the
river that its running red with blood.There is little apart from that to tie this to the plagues in
Exodus. And even that is a little flimsy (in my opinion).The dating stuff is better for me, as it allows for looking
for events in Egyptian records that tie in to Biblical chronology.Did the egyptians have a flood myth (should probably say 'story')
too ?

This link::
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dgarneau/euro18.htmMight proove interesting in the context of this thread.It's about the era supposedly of the Exodus, and mentions,
amongst other things, that the jewish one-God concept most
likely originated in Egypt as the worship of Aten (founded
by tutankhamun's dad Ahkenaten).From a historical perspective, it appears, that a majority of
scholars view the scriptural exodus as an exaggerated/elaborated
version of events which probably happened much more gently.

I've read many possibilities for the sources of the
flood myths.I was really looking for something which directly
corroborates the literal interpretation of the Bible.I doubt it really exists ... but I'm always open to evidence.

This is the kind of evidence that bothers me most.Find some tunnels in a city where a bible story says
they were built ... does that corroborate the bible ?Not unless there is some evidence of the builder being
the same person and the dates being right.My line of argument is roughly that fiction will use fact
to make it more realistic and accessible to the reader.I need references to the characters in the bible, not just
cities.Not even Jesus gets a direct mention, apart from when historians
are talking about christian beliefs. I don't doubt the
existence of christians only the literality (is that
a word???) of the bible.

quote:

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Originally posted by John:
Well, that's what struck me about this program. They seemed to have all the dates right, the names, everything. I've been meaning to look for more info but haven't yet had time. If I find anything I'll post it.

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That's definitely what I'm looking for then!!

That's always been my reasoning ... and it's why I would need
more than a single event/person combination.Even then it's the significant events in the bible that need
corroboration from independent sources. Without that I don't
see how anyone can accept the Bible as fact rather than fiction.I don't know of any other text that, alone and without independent
verification, is considered fact. The Iliad is about the siege of
Troy, and has features that can be correlated to archeological
finds, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that there was
in fact a near invulnerable warrior involved in the proceedings.

Little confused here .... according to the new chronology
the 1st dynasty started in 2781BC ... that is 4783 years ago ...
but the great flood is supposed to have happened 4500 years ago.How does that help biblical chronology ?

Not sure what impression I have given here, but
I tend to agree ... there may be aspects recorded within
the bible which bear relation to real events and persons.That doesn't make the entire bible literally true/correct.Since this discussion is about the orgin of diversity of
life I guess we should focuss on the accuracy of Genesis.This largely comes down to verifying the Great Flood (which in
itself doesn't verify the whole of Genesis, but hey-ho!)And yes, the version of Noah's flood in KJV does say that the
waters rose 15 cubits to cover the mountains.

Which Romans ? (Not saying you wrong I just would like to know )I agree with the mythic/legendary interpretation.YEC's appear unwilling to consider this ... why I do not
know.

I knew that people talking about christianity
mentioned these things (like Josephus and such)
but didn't realise they were mentioned without
the biblical references.