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Author Topic:   Independent Historical Corroboration for Biblical Events
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 212 (15781)
08-20-2002 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Peter
07-01-2002 11:09 AM


[darned double-posting thingy]
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-20-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Peter, posted 07-01-2002 11:09 AM Peter has not replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 212 (15782)
08-20-2002 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Peter
07-01-2002 11:09 AM


How about this site?
If you want to learn more, try David Rohl's "A Test of Time: From Myth to History" and "Legend: The Genesis of Civilization" books. [NB: the books are very long, about 500 A4 sized pages each chock full of chronologies, pictures, diagrams, tablets, ancient writings, etc]
Also, David Rohl is not Christian so you can't accuse him of bias.
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-20-2002]

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blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 212 (15904)
08-22-2002 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Me
08-21-2002 3:42 PM


I'm afraid David Rohl disagrees with you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Me, posted 08-21-2002 3:42 PM Me has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by John, posted 08-22-2002 9:01 AM blitz77 has replied
 Message 64 by Me, posted 08-23-2002 3:35 PM blitz77 has replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 212 (15910)
08-22-2002 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Peter
08-21-2002 11:46 AM


According to David Rohl The flood occurred around 3000 BC.
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-22-2002]

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blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 212 (15911)
08-22-2002 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by John
08-22-2002 9:01 AM


David Rohl says that the flood was real, not a legend.

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blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 212 (16009)
08-23-2002 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by John
08-23-2002 8:41 AM


Read in context. In 18:18 it says that during his lifetime Absalom raised a monument to himself-and wrote that that he THOUGHT he would have no sons. It is not as if someone else wrote that Absalom had no sons, its just that earlier in his life he thought he wouldn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by John, posted 08-23-2002 8:41 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
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blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 212 (16010)
08-23-2002 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by John
08-22-2002 9:18 PM


Let me be more specific; he says that the flood happened during the Uruk period; about 4000 - 3100 BC on the conventional chronology.
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-23-2002]

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 Message 55 by John, posted 08-22-2002 9:18 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
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blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 212 (16014)
08-24-2002 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by John
08-24-2002 12:16 AM


You don't need the context anyway because it says from where you quoted (18:18) "During his life-time Absalom had taken a pillar and erected it in the King's Valley as a monument to himself, for he thought 'I have no son to carry on the memory of my name.'"--NIV, 2 Sam 18:18
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-23-2002]

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blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 212 (16015)
08-24-2002 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by John
08-24-2002 12:19 AM


lol... I haven't got that book (legend: the test of time) here; I'll have to borrow it and take a look at it on its section on this. I did that from memory,the Uruk period according to the new chronology is a few hundred years later. But it gives you more time, and he backs it up using both the Biblical king list, Sumerian king list, the epics of Ziusudra, Atrahasis, and Gilgamesh XI, Dionysis, Osiris and archaeologist's reports.
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-23-2002]

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 Message 68 by John, posted 08-24-2002 12:19 AM John has not replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 212 (16017)
08-24-2002 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Me
08-23-2002 3:35 PM


Which portions don't you believe are true?

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 Message 64 by Me, posted 08-23-2002 3:35 PM Me has replied

Replies to this message:
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blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 212 (16019)
08-24-2002 1:38 AM


If people want to know more about some of the books by David Rohl, this is a summary what they are about-(using Debate Topics: Historical)
A Test of Time: From Myth to History-Rohl restructures the conventional chronology of Egyptian history, synthesizing it with the Israelite history and chronology. Using the new chronology, he identifies Ramesses II with the biblical Shishak. For King Solomon, he relocates the Solomonic period to the Late Bronze Age. This was an age of wealth and prosperity in the Levant, reflecting the biblical narrative of the wealth of Solomon's reign. Previously, Solomon was placed in a period of general impoverishment - the Early Iron Age.
For Saul, Akhenaten was the 18th Dynasty ruler who sought to change the entire religion and culture of Egypt to the worship of one deity, the sun-god Re, in the form of the Aten sun disc. Under his rule, however, Egypt became militarily weak and was brought to the brink of revolution. The superpower of the day was crippled, allowing a new power base to emerge in the Levant under the rule of firstly Saul, then David. This culminated in the reign of Solomon, with enough consolidated power to force a marriage alliance between himself and a later pharaoh's daughter. Using the amarna tablets, he shows that Saul is Labayu.
For David, before he became king his band was a group of wanderers-as mercenaries-they enter the service of Achish, king of Gath, who quarters them in Gath. This is identical to the habiru in the amarna tablets. From the tablets-""Say to Yanhamu, my lord: Message of Mutbaal, your servant. I fall at the feet of my lord. How can it be said in your presence, Mutbaal has fled. He has hidden Ayab'? How can the king of Pella flee from the commissioner, agent of the king, his lord? As the king, my lord, lives, as the king my lord lives, I swear Ayab is not in Pella. In fact, he has been in the field (i.e. on campaign) for 2 months. Just ask Benenima. Just ask Dadua. Just ask Yishuya." linguists have ascertained that Ayab is none other than Joab, commander of David's Hebrew army, Benenima is Baanah, one of Israel's chieftains, Dadua is a form of the name David, king of Judah and Yishuya is the name Jesse (Heb. Yishay), the father of David.
Moses-According to Artapanus (3rd century BC), a pharoah was persecuting the Israelites, named Palmanothes.Prince Mousos grew up to administer the land on behalf of this pharaoh. He led a military campaign against the Ethiopians who were invading Egypt; however, upon his return, Khenephres grew jealous of his popularity. Mousos then fled to Arabia to return when Khenephres died and lead the Israelites to freedom. Also, Avaris was built on a series of sandy hillocks to avoid the annual floodwaters of the Nile. The people who lived in Avaris, however, were not Egyptian but Asiatic Palestinian or Syrian.
The finds there included numerous pottery fragments of Palestinian origin. Several factors about the graves were particularly fascinating:-
65% of the burials were of children under 18 months of age, the normal for this period being 20-30%. Recorded in Exodus 1:22 is the killing of male Israelite children.A disproportionately high number of adult women as opposed to adult men are buried here, again pointing to the slaughter of male Israelite babies.
For the tenth plague, I'll just quote the site-
quote:
The Tenth Plague to be sent on Egypt just before the Exodus was the plague on the first-born, recorded in Exodus 12:29,30. At the end of stratum G/1 at Tell ed-Daba or the ancient city of Avaris (p.293), archaeologists found shallow burial pits into which the victims of some terrible disaster had been thrown. These death pits were not carefully organised internments; the bodies were simply thrown in on top of one another.
Joshua and the city of Jericho-
quote:
The walls of Jericho had indeed come tumbling down' (Joshua 6) and they had in many places filled the defensive ditch at the foot of the steep glacis slope, so enabling the Israelite troops to storm the city. Also found in Jericho were many large earthen jars of carbonised or burnt grain, indicating that the city had been captured rapidly and not after a long siege and famine, as there were lots of supplies. The city, after a sudden capture, had been burned to the ground as is recorded in Joshua 6:24. A layer of ash, in places up to a metre thick, was found, indicating the scale of the fire.
Joseph and the famine-
quote:
Do we have any evidence of famine during the reign of Amenemhat III? Remarkably, we do! The Egyptians depended on the annual flooding of the Nile to irrigate and fertilise the Black Land' of the Nile Valley and Delta. When the flood waters subsided, the enriched soil was then ploughed and sown for a reliable harvest. The German Egyptologist Karl Richard Lepsius, in 1844, worked at the Second Cataract of the Nile, at the ancient sites of the twin fortresses of Semna and Kumma. Here he found records for the heights of the Nile floods during the reign of Amenemhat III. The average height was eleven to twelve metres above the normal river level, which would have given a good harvest.
However, by the twelfth year of his reign, the floods recorded were around seventeen metres; this increased the silt deposited on the Delta and therefore gave richer, more abundant crops - the years of plenty'. This continued for seven to eight years. Then there is recorded a series of extra-high floods averaging 21 metres. This would have brought down three or four times the normal volume of water to the Delta. By the time the floodwaters receded, it would have been too late in the year to plant the crops, so resulting in a number of years of famine! It is interesting to note that Pharaoh's dream, as recorded in Genesis 41:1-4, tells of seven fat and seven thin cows, representing the years of plenty and famine; both came up' from the Nile, indicating that the Nile would have something to do with the famine! The grain produced in the Nile Delta was exported all over the Levant, so it is little wonder that the rest of the area suffered during the famine and Joseph's brothers came to buy grain in Egypt.
The pharaoh buying all the land, and evidence for Joseph-
quote:
Around the time of Amenemhat III, the power of the pharaohs was severely compromised by a number of baronies or local chieftains who controlled large parts of Egypt. Being quite rich, they could afford quite elaborate tombs to be buried in. Near the village of Beni Hasan, 39 of these tombs were found cut into a cliff face; the last dated to a period approximately 20 years before Amenemhat III. In this tomb, that of a chieftain called Khnumhotep III, was found a scene depicting a trading party of Asiatics arriving in Egypt (p.292). This party is very similar to the Midianite caravaneers to whom Joseph's brothers sold him when he was brought to Egypt (Genesis 37). The inscription below one of these reliefs reads, The chief of the hill country, Abishai' - a good biblical name! These caravaneers are wearing very colourful garments, again showing that it was the custom in the Levant at this time to wear such colourful clothes, cf. Joseph's coat of many colours, presented to him by his father Jacob!
During the reign of Amenemhat III, these local chieftains or nomarchs ceased to build their tombs, indicating that they had had their power removed. At the same time, Amenemhat III rose to be one of the most powerful pharaohs of the 12th Dynasty. The reason for this is recorded in Genesis 47:13-21 where even the wealthy were forced to sell their land and possessions to Pharaoh in exchange for grain during the famine. So, the power of the local bigwigs was broken and Pharaoh reigned supreme in Egypt thanks to the works of Joseph.
quote:
Amenemhat's pyramid in which he was buried at Hawara stands beside the ruins of one of the most impressive buildings of the ancient world - the Egyptian Labyrinth - built during his reign. This has thousands of storerooms and the reason for its building can be determined under David Rohl's new chronology. This was Joseph's administration centre, set up to organise the distribution of grain during the famine. It was only fitting that Pharaoh should wish to be buried beside the very means by which he had obtained absolute power in Egypt. Also nearby is an impressive water work undertaken during the time of Amenemhat III. A canal from the Nile to Lake Moeris (Birket Karun today) in the region of Faiyum was built to channel excess water from the annual Nile flood into this basin to help lower the Delta flood waters. Its modern name is Bahr Yussef - the waterway of Joseph! All these can now be looked at as the building works undertaken under the supervision of Joseph the Israelite.
Legend: The Genesis of Time-Rohl proposes that Eden and its garden was between Lakes Van and Urmin and the Caspian Sea, with Nod on its east. Then he claims the ancestors of the Sumerians migrated in the 6th millennium BC from this "Eden" to Mesopotamia, establishing Sumerian culture there, and identical with biblical Shem. The Mesopotamian and biblical Flood, he sets in the late 4th millennium BC. In part three, Rohl brings Sumerian traders to East Africa (Punt & Sudan--"Kush"), and Egypt, becoming founders of Pharaonic Egypt, using cultural links c.3000BC. He correlates the Sumerian King List, Biblical King List, Ziusudra, Gilgamesh, Noah, Dionysus and Osiris.
A new book coming out this year by David Rohl called "The Lost Testament" follows the sequence of events from the rise of Neolithic civilization, through Noah, Abraham and the sojourn in Egypt, to the fall of Jericho, the dual kingdoms of the Promised Land and lastly, exile in Babylon.
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-24-2002]

Replies to this message:
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