Points on abortion and the crutch of supporters

You haven't answered my question:"Please explain where along in gesteation fertilized egg becomes a person.
Or, do you equate fertilized eggs with persons?"

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When the pregnant mother-to-be is able to have an abortion performed.

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A woman is able to take a morning-after pill which will flush an egg out of her body mere hours after it was fertilized.This is essentially an extremely early abortion.Do you equate the taking of a morning after pill with murdering a person?Also, do you advocate examining the menstrual fluid of all women to look for "potential babies", as most fertilized eggs do not implant and are discharged during menstruation?Can you please indicate and explain where along in the gestation of a fertilized egg that it becomes a person?

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Let's play a little game I like to call repetition.

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So the woman is allowed to be Death?

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Her governing choices decide life or death for the baby.

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Where along in the gestation of a fertilized egg does it become a person?The moment of conception? 24 hours? One week? 6 weeks? 3 months?At what moment is it a person?Or, do you equate fertilized eggs with persons?Yes or no, chris?

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Her governing choices decide life or death for the baby.

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Her choiced also decide, in some cases, life or death for herself, as well.I find it very telling that you have no comment whatsoever on my data regarding the danger of childbirth.Women DIE from complications of childbirth.More are rendered infertile.Death from abortion is almost unheard of.Death from the morning after pill is even less heard of.You believe that the you or the government has the right to force girls and women to increse their chance of death and infertility?

bump

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I'm not sure when it would become a human person. Some say at conception but I dunno. Some say because a distinct DNAcode is formed that doesn't change.
Schraf can you explain why at conception it wouldn't be a human.

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I'm not personally sure when it becomes a human.However, I AM sure that a fertilized egg or a group of cells can't think, feel physical sensation, and therefore is not an individual human.It may have homo sapiens genes but it sure isn't a person.It's for this reason that I cannot justify the disregard of the girls' or woman's personhood.

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In some cases, which I said acceptions should be made for.

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These are the shades of gray I was talking about.What exceptions should be allowed, and why?In the case of serious health risks to the mother, who decides if the risks are dire enough to allow an abortion? Should it be a legal/political or a medical descision?In the case of rape/incest, why is an abortion OK if the mother is healthy? If you think that life begins at conception and that any artificial means to end pregnancy is murder, then you are saying that murder of a fetus is sometimes OK, and that in this case, the rights of the mother DO outweigh those of the fertilized egg, group of cells, or fetus, because forcing a woman to carry the product of a rape or incest to term would be too great of an emotional hardship.So, who should be able to decide if any pregnancy is too great of an emotional hardship? Should it be a personal and medical descision, or should it be a legal/political descision?I do think that prevention of unwanted pregnancy is the most important thing to do, to make abortions rare, which is why we need los of sex education, starting very early in life, and readily available free contraceptives for anyone who wants them.

So, white hill, how many unwanted children have you adopted?Have you lobbied your senator and congresspeople to legalize and fund RU486? Have you urged them to provide free and readily available contraceptives for everyone who wants them, including children, without parental consent? Have you written to tell them how requiring minor girls to get parental consent before getting an abortion effectively ensures a later-term abortion than would otherwise be neccessary?Also, what have you personally done to educate our children about preventing unwanted preganancy?Lastly, do you support gun control in the US, and do you support the death penalty?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-27-2004]

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Well I can see where there are a lot of kids still waiting to get adopted, but they are older children and not new born babies.

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Why should that matter?Do they want a child or not?

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So your comment on waiting for the pro-lifers to adopt a child is not accurate.

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Look, the older children are just as unwanted as the infants. If the anti-legalized abortion folks cared so much about those children, it wouldn't matter to them if they were older, don't you think?

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I personally know a family who had to wait for 8 years to adopt a child, because they were unable to have there own child.

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I'll bet they were really, really, really specific in the kind of child they were willing to take.

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Now the situation with kids that are older to be adopted is a different topic all together.

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No, it's exactly the same topic. Do these people love children so much that they would be willing to take any child? Doesn't seem like it.

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I see nothing wrong with abortion, if the mother or the child or both will die as a result of labor. The death of two in place of one is senseless.

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Obviously, abortion under all cases except mentioned above *should* be illegal,

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Obviously, to you, but not to me, and not to millions and millions of people throughout the world.Why do you thhink you have the right to force a woman to incubate a fetus?

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but is not due to special interest groups and the subjective opinion of a single Supreme Court judge.

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Yeah, the "special interest group" of those with ovaries.

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We will see how long this remains true. Abortions are down, and pro-life foundations are getting more money every year. Heck, even the woman behind Roe vs Wade has changed sides and is now pro-life, after being convinced that abortion does women more harm than good. I fully expect to see Wade overturned within my lifetime, more probably than not, within ten years. And if the current trend in abortion rates continues, nobody will much care when it is.

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I suppose you will feel no resonsibility for the sharp increase in the number of women who die from illegal abortions, then, because that is exactly what will happen if abortion becomes illegal.How many unwanted children are you planning on adopting, gene?

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Oh, by the way, it seems that we (the US) actually have to *import* babies for adoption.

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That people are "importing" children is NOT because there aren't any children waiting to be adopted in this country.

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Despite this, recently I was debating a friend of mine on abortion when she pointed out that she had friends that needed adoption and never were, instead growing up under custody of the State. She stumbled when I asked her if she (or her friends) would prefer they had been killed before birth. Maybe she had too many friends?

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Lots of people have never been born, for all sorts of reasons.Are you saying we don't have enough people on the planet?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-06-2004 09:03 AM

Gene, when does a egg and sperm become human, and how can you tell it's human?

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Because an elective abortion kills another human being, such abortions are morally wrong.

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I suppose you have totally reversed your position on all military action, then, and become a pacifist, since you now believe that all killing of humans by other humans is morally wrong?

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Also, what does each side have to lose? The woman has only to endure nine months of inconvenience.

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Excuse me?If you think that it is merely inconvenient to be preganant and to endure labor and give birth, then it is clear that you have no clue and no respect for what women go through.You make it sould like pregnancy and labor are a walk in the park.It is much more likely for a woman to die in childbirth, and from complications afterwords, than from having a safe, legal abortion.Let me be clear; it is much safer for the health of the mother to have an abortion than to carry a child to term.

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An excessively permissive society.

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If you don't like it, why don't you go to China, or North Korea, or?I hear they are less permissive there.

Ah, just as suspected. Gene is great at talking the talk but refuses to walk the walk.I don't think that he would score any points with his other Mormon buds if they found out he was handing out condoms or helping women get birth control.It must be nice in your ivory tower, sheltered from the real world.

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Of course, the boy involved probably bears themost 'fault', as boys can be very coercive and forceful when it comes to sex.

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I'd just like to point out the most of the pregnancies of underage girls are fathered by adult men.