P.Z. Myers in the news (the catholic church communion wafer incident)

Quite honestly, I find a lack of maturity all-around on this issue and am surprised Myers is taking the bait.First of all, there is the immature individual who fueled it all via his sophomoric actions. Of course, the individual thought it would be cool to attend a Catholic service and do something he knew would be seen as disrespectful and highly inflammatory to those who adhere to this belief system. You do not have to disrespect others to get your point across.Of course, people will jump in on me and go ballistic about free speech and stuff but, come on folks -- this type of stuff is for kids. We are supposed to be better than that, right? How is disrespecting the beliefs of others going to do anything at all to open their ears to what any agnostic or atheist has to say? It makes the job even harder. We don't need this childish approach.If your goal is to get people to take you seriously and listen to the atheist side of the issue when it comes to the atheist/theist/evolution debate, why inflame others with such polemic when it does nothing but further lower the view of atheists in the eyes of the believers? What can you possibly gain by fueling the flames with such sophomoric polemic? Sorry, but this is the last kind of rhetoric the atheist or agnostic needs to be associated with.As far as the death threats- -we all know many religious folks can act and behave irrationally. This is not exactly news, is it? What did you expect? Just let them rant and look like mad men. Let them look like the ones shouting insults back and forth on the playground. You don't have to pull yourself down to the sophomoric level by taking the bait and engaging in a schoolhouse spat. You said your piece, drop it. Let them look like the immature ranting fools spewing polemic. Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.

How is mocking anyone a proper response? What does it do to gain respect and acceptance of ones own views? Talking down to people never works. It is easy to see the absurdity in many of these beliefs but mocking people who hold these beliefs does nothing but increase animosity and distrust on both sides of the issues. Antagonizing those people that one wants to convince is neither rational or prudent.Time and time again atheists and agnostics who reject theism and organized religion state we only want respect, acceptance, and a public voice.We then see a main public voice who is also a prominent academic respond as such:"Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?....if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I’ll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won’t be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web.”To see a prominent academic lose his composure like this is embarrassing. If I did not know who this was I would think it was a high school student posting at Dawkins.net. This type of rhetoric goes a long way in increasing the public understanding of science and acceptance of atheists as mature and productive members of society who have a lot to offer civilization. When this type of polemic comes from the forefront of the effort, from those who are supposed to be the main figures, there is a problem. We are supposed to be the ones who show we are motivated by reason and do not let our emotions lead us into such outbursts.We demand respect and state that you do not have to agree with me but please at least give me the respect I deserve as a fellow citizen and human being. Unfortunately, we do not appear to be willing to give it. What Catholic Scientist has stated is true -- we are hypocrites. We simply deny it.This is the part about the 'post-modern' atheist humanist movement that I just do not get and I care not to be associated with. Quite frankly, it is an embarrassment. Juvenile name calling is for weak-minded individuals who have let reason, common sense, and any sense of decorum fly out the window. The majority of the 'Debate' in the public arena has appeared to degrade into nothing more than a volley of repetitive insults being tossed back and forth. If it wasn't for moderation, even this forum would be your typical Dawkins or Myers forum with sophomoric insults being tossed back and forth ad infinitum. It appears the belief is if I can publicly insult you enough then you will eventually come around to my position. Bible thumping on the forehead has been replaced with brow-beating with reason.The militant elements have thoroughly indoctrinated a new cadre of individuals who are looking for purpose and meaning to their lives. They have been initiated into a new tribalism of the mind where one is indoctrinated to judge an individual's worth as a human being based solely on his or her intellectual and rational capabilities. Being accepted into this club now offers fulfillment and a sense of belonging. One is commanded to go forth and conquer knowing that we are the master race and they are the inferior race that needs to be eradicated like a virus. Mankind has found yet another way to manufacture prejudice and create further divisions and discord.Dawkins and company in-your-face brand of proselytization will not work. Telling people they are stupid deluded fools is not going to win any converts or gain acceptance. Anyone who thinks it will is out of touch with reality. Many public figures withint the athiest/humanist movement are slowly falling to the same level of those we condemn for emotional outbursts and tirades. Our arrogance and contempt for others and a failure to try to comprehend the human and emotional reasons for acceptance of these beliefs is the reason I believe the atheist position will never be fully accepted within mainstream American society.End of rant. Let the insults begin.

"Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?....if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I’ll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won’t be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web.”One would be hard-pressed to find any truly objective individual who would not categorize the response as anything but sophomoric, immature, and unbecoming of a man of his academic stature and position. One would also be hard-pressed to find anyone who, had they not known the author of such a comment, would think that it came from a distinguished academic and university professor who is at the forefront of the public push for reason and the advancement of science.He has embarrassed himself by lowering himself to the same level of fanatical polemic that usually comes from the mouths of religious kooks. How about resolving the issue by having a spitball fight with Donohue or perhaps invite to kick his ass after school?You don't need to damage your own professional reputation by engaging in a tit-for-tat with the irrational. You will only succeed in dragging yourself down into the mud with those who sling the dirt. Myers response sounds more like what one would expect from an emotionally charged fanatic rather than a man of reason. Why nobody else can see this(perhaps they have lost their objectivity and don't want to see this), is beyond me.

I understand; however, Myers is a prominent figure at the forefront and people are watching. He is also an established academic with a pofessional reputation to uphold. Those with opposing views are looking for anything they can possibly use to portray atheists, agnostics, and humanists in a negative light. They enjoy potraying athiests as angry fanatics who do not make productive, responsibile and respectfull members of society. Stuff like this just gives them all the ammunition they need. It also does a bit of damage to his personal reputation in the eyes of even some who support him.One cannot call for a society guided by reason and rationality then fly off the handle in public like this. This just looks really silly. This has nothing to do with free speech. It's about how the public views you. If the goal is to gain respect and acceptance this is not the way to do it. This type of public expression is totally beneath a man of his stature -- inflamed or not.I once heard an African American talk about the problems minorities faced in the professional work force. He said one has to always dress twice as sharp and always maintin your public apperance and composure, regardless of the circumstances. People are always watching and always trying to find something to judge you by.The same reasoning, I believe, applies to those who hold a minority worldview. One can never put on a public face that reinforces any negative stereotypes. You just can't do it -- suck it up and move forward. There are many ways to get a point accross.

Hi Granny,I certainly am not taking the position that Myers or anyone else should remain silent in the face of death threats over such matters or that the absurdity of some beliefs should not be publicly discussed or take the spotlight. I also believe the idea that some are calling for his dismissal is way over the top. He has the freedom to express himself in any way he sees fit.I just think Myers wen too far on this and it will hurt his cause more than help. If he would have focused entirely on the travesty of the situation regarding the death threats and intelligently and calmly pointed out the absurdity of such a situation, all of the negative PR would have been on the shoulders of the fools who went bonkers over the incident.Living in a very conservative area and being surrounded by a conservative Christian community, I do understand what it is like to have people thumb their nose at me and treat me like Damien from the Omen. I am the constant target of attempted conversions and prosletyzations. I have been insulted and have experienced animosity directed towards me. Frustrated at lack of success, their goal then becomes to get a rise out of me. Why give them the satisfaction of seeing me melt down and go off?I simply believe there are much more productive and rational ways of getting a point across than taunting or being belligerent in response to such wackery. It serves no rational purpose that I can think of and only increases distrust and animosity. This further emboldens the convictions of those who hold an opposing view that you are everything negative they think you are. Any potential for future civil discussion then becomes even more difficult. One cannot humiliate or brow-beat someone into accepting a world view. If reasoning and presentation of facts does not do the trick, taunting and insult certainly won't succeed.As a matter of personal experience, I have found individuals with opposing world views are much more willing to listen to me and discuss my viewpoints if I do not approach them with a condescending attitude. I may not convince them but they will be open to future dialogue and they may shed some of the stereotypes and prejudices they once held.They slowly learn that my lack of acceptance of Christianity does not mean I am the anti-Christ. I do not worship the devil and I do not do drugs. I have absolutely no desire to murder, rape, or run amok. I have a sense of morals and values that have been instilled in me by my parents who taught me right from wrong. I do believe in the Constitution and believe everyone has the right to religious freedom and expression. In short, the best way to find acceptance is to show others that I am not a threat to them by displaying that I may not agree with your world view but I am willing to respect you as long as you are willing to do the same in return.