Cartoons and common sense

Speaking as a non U.S. citizen now living in the U.S. the perception can very easily be clouded by the vocal minority, Before I came here, I and most of the people I spoke to had a preconception of the people in this country being arrogant, imperialist, triumphalist, very right wing, and generally stupid. Rightly or wrongly this is the view that is projected.I am pleased to say that on closer inspection I now know this preconception to be false. the truth is, there is a larger proportion (but by no means a majority) of people here who have tendancies in this direction.Crowds may well be self assembling, but we all know that a peaceful protest can very easily be hijacked by a rowdy minority (look at the yearly standoff to do with orange marches in N. Ireland for intance) and unfortunately the media jumps on these images, projects them such that these are all an outsider has to make a judgment unless they have the wherewithal to dig deeper.There are many cases where 20 people have wanted a riot, 200 people have not... and the riot has happened. and the entire crowd are ttarred with that particular brush.

I've been to things that turned into riots. Do you know what I did when the riot started?I left, because I didn't want to be part of a riot. If you stay and riot, then you're pretty obviously doing something you want to do, even if that wasn't your original intent.

I've seen plenty of riots.. all it takes is a few idiots to throw stones at the police, the police retaliate blindly, get the wrong guy(s) then the 20 or so 'rowdies' get riled up get more violent then more innocents get hurt, people get angry, try to defend them selves from the approaching violent coppers (they still hit you when you're running away you know)and the situation spirals out of control.20 people.. turned an otherwise peaceful gathering into chaos. It happens every day.I've seen cases where ths police 'box' in a crowd.. so there's nowhere to run, they then continue to beat the people... the tv shows pictures of the ones that fight back, and people brand everyone with this portrayal.But even forgetting about riots... as was mentioned above... a few people have hateful placards insiting violence or whatever, how does that imply that everyone in the crowd is insiting violence?
that's the type of sweeping generalisation that leads to prejudice, rascism and xenophobia.If I go to an anti war protest, I have a 'stop war' placard and someone else has a 'Kill bush' placard, does this mean that I support the assassination of a president?
should I then go home because someone else in that crowd of 100,000 people has a differeing view on how to stop the war? thereby giving them even more visibility?

As long as "legal means" does not include lawsuits and/or criminal suits then I agree. I see no difference between mob action, and a single individual using the power of gov't to coerce another to his bidding.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

What evidence do you have that this is true? Where did you have anyone speaking for a group and everyone agreeing? Uh... MY assertions? All MidEasterners are what Fox News says unless I come up with support? How about some support from your own side?I saw some signs which are not representative of all signs there. I also saw you mention the Iranian leader and assert that people are agreeing with him.I told you to watch the feeds of the demonstrations, but even if you do not do that, then use some common sense (or logic). How big are these demonstrations compared to the populace? How many of the demonstrators go on to riot? Who are opposing the rioters and clubbing/shooting them?Its hard to buy the extrapolations you are making given the nature of the demonstrations. I guess I'd like to see some evidence for your claims AGAINST people in the MidEast. They don't have to control the majority, they just have to show up and stay. Are you seriously claiming that most WTO protestors were supportive of the violent actions taken? Why? If an atheist group believed that marxism is the way and all rich must be killed, why would you need to address them just because you are an atheist? These are superficial connections.Yes if while attending Islamic services one encountered such rhetoric or behavior it makes sense that they should deal with what they see. But that would be the same if you were an atheist seeing the same thing being done by a muslim, or a muslim seeing the same thing being done by an atheist.Do rich blacks need to address the problem of poor violent blacks in the inner city, or is it everyone's problem equally? It is more mainstream than that. There is a sympathy for that position beyond those that are hardcore Israeli supporters. Definitely not an excuse. I think it is unhealthy, and counterproductive, even if it is understandable as base human reaction.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

If you go to a Nazi rally, should I assume you're a member of the Simon Weisenthal Society?If you go to a KKK meeting, should I presume that you support affirmative action for black people?

Just answer the question, Holmes. It's not a tough one. Envision any circumstance you like; just tell me what it looks like. I've already provided what support I think is necessary to demonstrate that there's a considerable anti-Semitic streak within Muslim culture in the middle east. This is an analysis shared by other observers of that region. Atheism is not a religion, and I don't claim brotherhood with all atheists. On the other hand, Islam does claim that its adherents have a stronger fundamental connection between each other than to others outside the faith.When I imply that Muslims as a whole are linked into a community where there's some amount of shared responsibility for their actions, I'm not making that up. That's what Islam is telling me. I'm just taking them at their word. Some things you need to hear from someone you consider on your side. For instance, witness how rarely the evolutionist moderators here are at managing creationists, compared to creationist moderators doing the same thing.

not my point and you know it,
If I go to an anti war protest you should assume I am anti war. not that I want to kill the president.If I go to a protest about caricatures of the prophet mohammed you should assume that I disagree with the satirizing of the prophet mohammed, not that I want to kill all westerners.how about you answer my questions instead of sidestepping??edited for spellingThis message has been edited by Creavolution, 02-08-2006 05:48 PM

If you go to a protest and the people there say they want to kill Bush, why should I assume you're at an anti-war protest and not a kill Bush protest? If I see you at a protest and the protestors there are saying they want to kill Westerners, why should I assume you're at an anti-cartoon protest and not a kill-westerners protest?Your reasoning is circular; you assume the position of the protest you're at, but its the nature of the protest, the position of the protest, that is at the very heart of the question.

Because maybe... just maybe.. you can see beyond the rating hunting tv footage and be aware that there are people at this protest who are are holding "no war" placards not "kill bush" ones,
and maybe... just maybe you can plug yourself in long enough to realise that because I stand next to someone does not mean I agree with everything they think or say.It seems however that you do not have this ability, it seems that you make a cursory glance at the situation remember the one detail that outrages you most and apply that to the everyone involved.So.. according to you... because I am an Irish nationalist I therefore support the terror campaign of the IRA... but as I have a protestant father I am also an orangeman and because I am an orangeman I wish to see an end to the catholic faith by whatever means possible, because... somwhere, sometime, someone at the same protest march that I was at held a sign that said "taigs out" or similar.indeed.things must happen at breakneck speed in your head, because it seems you spend no time evaluating any situation but rather join the dots hurriedly then take a step back and believe that what you've drawn is correct.

If a protest is called as an 'anti war' (for example) protest, then, yes I will go to that protest, because I agree with the 'anti war' stance.
However, if there are people there that take a more miltant stance and want to attack an embassy or whatever. this does not mean that I also harbour tese militant sentiments.you seem to think it does, why do you think this? what leads you to assume this? other than mere blind assertion due to your unwillingness to look beyond the 30 second news clip you see?
and your apparent ignorance of that fact that opinions do not spread by osmosis.

Agreed. I have participated in anti-war protests in which I could not ascertain the nature of every sign, placard, or fanciful costume of everyone there. I may have been part of a rally that did not represent the totality of my beliefs. Rather it was just one... that I was against the War in Iraq. Perhaps I should have left for fear that I was being misrepresented.

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"In Heaven, everything is fine."
The Lady in the Radiator
Eraserhead
One Movie a Day/Week/Whenever

quote:

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Perhaps I should have left for fear that I was being misrepresented.

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That would not have been necessary as long as you went on national news and denounced every single position and viewpoint with which you disagreed and which might have conceivably been at that protest.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

I did the talk show circuit. I became briefly famous for appearing on these talk shows wearing a T-shirt that espoused every single belief I had. In each case, the producers of the show refused to spend 2.5 hours doing a slow tilt down over the front of my shirt. I told them that it would be good TV but they thought they knew better and kept mumbling something about ad revenues.We compromised with a quick closeup of the shirt during which I had time to read five of these beliefs before they cut to commercial. I'll never forget those days. Or go to another rally. That was a waste of my time.

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"In Heaven, everything is fine."
The Lady in the Radiator
Eraserhead
One Movie a Day/Week/Whenever

maybe each one of your beliefs printed on a different t-shirt worn by every member of the audience would have worked?a slow pan across the enthralled crowd as Doc Potato continues:
"Never wear socks in bed....only use organic toothpaste....purple weeds are pretty..."