Could mainstream christianity ever make peace with gay people?

This is a thorny issue for modern churches to deal with, as has been demonstrated by the rumblings of discontent within Anglicanism. I fear that homophobia is so ingrained in Christianity's roots, that any attempt by moderates to shake it off is going to face an uphill struggle. The threatened split in the Anglican community is a story that is going to repeat itself again and again, wherever moderates try to encourage acceptance of gays. Part of the problem is peoples antipathy toward homosexuality, but the scripture remains the biggest problem. The Bible is explicitly anti-gay, and there's no way to hide that fact. Of course, much of the Bible is ignored by modern believers, but only where they find it more convenient to do so. Where the text supports peoples prejudices, it will retain its influence.

---

Mutate and Survive

Yes, that is exactly my point. Scripture is abandoned whenever it becomes an inconvenience, out of step with modern requirements. I think that the taboo over homosexuality that still persists in society as a whole is just a little too strong as yet for scripture to be cast aside. The pressure from liberals and moderates isn't strong enough yet. There are still too many people who simply don't like gays. The scripture serves to reinforce their prejudice. Until the prejudice itself becomes less of a factor, the churches wont change. I believe it will happen, we can already see the increasing acceptance of homosexuality in parts of the Anglican church, but I am sad to say that I don't think society as a whole has come far enough to change the religious norms. Not just yet. I hope that I am wrong.
Taz mentioned his grandchildren. I would like to think that by that time, this argument will be a historical footnote. I am optimistic that will be the case.

---

Mutate and Survive

That may be true in theory, but in practice, we are both well aware that the Catholic church has enormous influence over what political decisions are made in Ireland. If you doubt this, just look at the Irish abortion laws. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the case that there is still no same-sex marriage, or equivalent, Ireland? Are you telling me that the church had nothing to do with that?

---

Mutate and Survive

Sorry if I implied that you were. It wasn't my intent. It's just that when I think about Ireland there's one religion that immediately springs to mind.
If your church is more welcoming to homosexuals, that's great, but are they accepting of homosexuality itself, or are they only interested in "reforming" homosexual converts? I often here the phrase "Hate the sin, not the sinner" in this context, but I don't think that there can be real peace between homosexuals (and other alternative sexualities) and religion until churches stop describing homosexual activity as sinful. That's the sticking point. Unfortunately, I can't help but suspect that the lack of demand is due in large part to the fact that many people are being told from the pulpit that these things are sinful. The church is still exerting an influence over public policy, albeit indirectly.
I don't doubt for a moment that Ireland is embracing secular politics, but I think that it's too soon to write off the influence of the Catholic church just yet.

---

Mutate and Survive

If the sinner needs to give up the sin to be reconciled with God, then yes, that's what I'm saying. If God says that homosexual activity is sinful, then he is being unjust. There is no moral or ethical reason to object to homosexuality. If God objects, then he is in the wrong and he should buck his ideas up. That may sound arrogant to you, but I would expect God, if he were real, to adhere to a more rigorous moral regime than humanity, and not be a homophobic bigot. Only if Christian churches stop trying to force people to deny their sexual orientation will they make peace with homosexuals. It can be done, but there needs to be compromise, and that is increasing unlikely to gay people, who see no reason to compromise. Religion remains a source of prejudice against homosexuals. That has to end or it will just continue to propagate divisions. So does this change necessarily involve denying one's homosexuality or refraining from homosexual activity? Or could one enjoy a Christian relationship with God and still be gay? Let's hope that the echo continues to fade. Religion has no place in defining social policy in a democratic state.

---

Mutate and Survive

Well that is something positive I suppose. And how do you propose to demonstrate what God does or does not think is wrong? In the absence of any comment from God, I am going by my own version of morality. In fact you too are defining your own moral system when you choose to agree with one biblical ruling and not another.
So far as I am concerned, if God were standing right in front of me, telling me that homosexuality was wrong, I would still disagree with him and demand that he make some sort of ethical case against it. In the absence of such a case, we are left with nothing but "God says no" and that just isn't good enough. No sorry, I completely disagree. Right and wrong are defined by morality and ethics, not some edict from God. The "God says no" argument is meaningless to me anyway of course, because I am an atheist. Even if God were real though, I would still expect him to base his edicts on morality, not just "Because I said so". That is the justification of a bully, and I will not be bullied. Well, as I said, I don't believe in God, so my model would be more individual > church > that's it. I do take your point though. If churches were to butt out of people's business and leave the judgements to God, that would be a great start in reconciling gay people and the church. Can we assume that it might not be? Not for the sake of argument, but for the real world. After all, you have no real idea what God considers sinful or even if he really exists. Maybe God is fine about homosexuality and really gets pissed off about the eating of shellfish.
Assuming that homosexuality is sinful isn't going to get us anywhere, because this hypothetical agreement is never going to be made in the real world. Homosexuals are just not interested in hearing arguments that assume them to be sinners. Unless every gay and lesbian in the world converts to Christianity, such arguments are never going to promote peace or understanding. I strongly agree with that. Homosexuality is being made a test of faith in many churches. That has to stop if progress is to be made. No, that's not my assumption at all. I have no part in the "Is homosexuality natural" debate. I happen to think that it usually is, but really, that is irrelevant. The only question is "Is homosexual activity moral or immoral?" (I phrase it in this way because "sinful or not sinful" is not a judgement that we would be able to make, even if God were real and also because I am opposed to the whole concept of sin, but that's another thread entirely). I could not care less whether gays choose to be gay or not. It makes no difference.
I consider homosexuality and heterosexuality to be on a par because there is no moral difference between the two. If you disagree, please explain what you think the moral difference is, without reference to God or what is natural. This seems to imply that gays who come to God will be "re-oriented". That is a fantasy. It won't happen. Nor should it need to happen. Suggesting that homosexuality is something that requires re-orienting is patronising and only serves to drive a wedge between gays and the church. I'm glad you think so and I applaud you for that, but much of what you say suggests that you think homosexuality is sinful. So long as that belief persists, Christian gays are going to be a small and unhappy group. All groups are entitled to a voice. I just don't think that any religion should have a position of influence that outweighs any other non-governmental organisation, charity, think tank or whatever. Let hem lobby government the same as any other NGO. Attempts to influence social policy on purely religious grounds however, should be completely ignored, since this is in conflict with or right to freedom from religion.

---

Mutate and Survive

And there is the problem. So long as you assume that (and I don't believe you when you say it is "for argument's sake, I think that this is your real opinion, you just don't want to come out and say it) there will be no peace between gays and the church.
You keep talking about God, what he wants and how we can become close to him, but that is not the issue under discussion here. The topic is "Could mainstream christianity ever make peace with gay people?". Relying on everyone who disagrees with you finding God and having their opinions magically changed to agree with yours is not going to help. Well I live in a democracy. Work it out for yourself. Despite your entire argument resting on the assumption that he does exist and that you know what he thinks. Schraf is not the only one with a nose for such things. You are right though, that argument is a sidetrack. How about you stop basing your argument on what you think God says, so we don't have to pursue that line of reasoning? er... Yes it is. Take another look at that OP title mate. And there we have it ladies and gentlemen, the reason why there isn't going to be peace between gay people and the church any time soon; Christians like Iano just don't want peace. They think the antagonism is a good thing. Since Rahvin has already pursued you on this one and discovered that you have absolutely no morals of your own, I don't see much point pursuing this. Save to say that your god-based substitute for morality isn't much use to society at large.
The rest of your argument is just repetition of your "God says" attitude, an attitude that has held sway for centuries and done nothing to foster peace. But of course, that's not what you want is it?

---

Mutate and Survive

No need to go looking, I am well aware that such people exist. They are a minority of homosexuals. Those of us who support gay rights won't accept that homosexual activity is sinful. Ever. In fact, many of us have no interest in your god or the concept of sin. They are barriers to social change, that's all. Not much more to discuss then is there? We'll never accept homosexuality as sin, and you don't actually want peace anyway.

---

Mutate and Survive

You worship Elvis?Cool! At least the hymns would be better.

---

Mutate and Survive