Could mainstream christianity ever make peace with gay people?

tesla writes:

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therefore, if a gay man is to meet those who truly are Christians, they will accept him, but not his policy.

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Why? Jesus never said anything about gay people.And nothing in the Old Testament is in reference to gays, either.Surely you're not putting Paul above Jesus, are you?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano writes:

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It might be helpful to get a few basic principles straight.

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And a great litany follows.Since your god tells you not to judge lest you be given the same damnation you condemn upon others, that it is not your place to judge anyone, then everything you have said shows you are doing nothing but sinning.How can you pull the mote out of your brother's eye when there is this great plank in your own?You make a show of your piety before the masses solely to gain the glory of men. Isn't that condemned by your god?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano responds to me:

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Could you reference somewhere where I have judged. As opposed to reported...

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Oh, Christ...let's not wander down this lane again, shall we? "Not his policy"? What on earth does that mean if not to say that a sin is taking place? It is not your place to make that judgement. So being gay is "evil." It is not your place to make that judgement. So gays are the "enemy"? It is not your place to make that judgement. And once again, we see someone comparing gays to child molesters. Did we learn nothing from the mass bannings that have taken place? Because gay people don't love? It is not your place to make that judgement. So being gay is "evil"? It is not your place to make that judgement.And again, note the equating of gays with those who would "cause evil to others."Let's not pretend what you were doing, iano. And let's not wander afield. The point is simply that you are not the one to pass judgement. Your holy book specifically and directly tells you to keep your attentions on yourself and your own actions and not to worry about what others do for it is not your place to make such judgements. It warns you that if you dare try to do god's work, you will be punished with what you would condemn others. No, there is no escape of innocence. It doesn't matter if you have not done what would be judged a sin...if you take up god's mantle of judgement, you will be condemned with every judgement you make.Thus, why would a Christian, one who is truly following the path of Jesus, make any comment about what another was doing?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano responds to me:

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He's probably putting Matthew, Mark, Luke and John on a par with Paul. There is no gospel according to Jesus

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I know, but the difference between the synoptic gospels + John and the writings of Paul are that the big four claim to record the actual words of Jesus. Paul was just speaking off the cuff.One would think that if sexual orientation were of such great import to Jesus, it would have been mentioned somewhere in the big four.Since it wasn't, one has to wonder why some people seem to get so up in arms about it.

iano responds to me:

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He claims himself a called apostle, set apart by God for the purposes of the gospel - rendering him Gods mouthpiece.

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He can claim it all he wants. But since he didn't show up on the scene until 100 years after Jesus died, he isn't an apostle and he cannot relate the words of Jesus. The best he can do is tell us what he thinks of the message of Jesus. And the fact that he directly contradicts Jesus on multiple occasions should tell us something.Not one jot. Not one tittle.Except for those pesky things Paul says you don't have to do anymore like get circumcised or keep kosher or follow any of the rest of the Law.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano responds to me:

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The post you are quoting from as mine, isn't mine

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D'oh! My apologies. That was tesla, not you, and for that, I apologize.Let's look at what you did say, though:

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God didn't make gays gays in other words

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Well, if god didn't may gay people gay and if the gay people themselves didn't make themselves gay, where did all the gay people come from?You're judging. It is not for you to make that claim. Who are you to say what god did and did not do?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano responds to me:

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You would imagine that Jesus' equating of the sin of lustful thoughts

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So being gay is "lustful thoughts"? You're judging again.

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Whilst the Bible doesn't go into detail on each and every form of sexual sin it deals with the issue in a global way by giving the circumstances under which sex may occur. That is: within the confines of a marriage between a man and a woman.

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No, it doesn't. Again, Jesus doesn't say anything about gay people and there is nothing in the Old Testament about it, either.There's a joke:There are four passages in the Bible regarding same-sex sexual activity compared to over three hundred regarding mixed-sex sexual activity. This doesn't mean god loves straights less than gays.It's just that they need more supervision.

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Whereas sex is given as a gift only to those in a male/female marriage.

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Says who? Not Jesus. You're not about to put Paul above Jesus, are you?And you're judging again. It is not for you to say what is a "gift" and what is not.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano writes:

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I'm not judging you for it.

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Yes, you are. It is not for you to say what is and what is not a sin. You may be correct that we are all sinners, but you are in no position to declare what sin is. That is for god and god alone. The fact that you seem to think you know god's opinion is to seek the glory of man, not god.

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Remember the refrain "I was blind but NOW I see".

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There you go judging again.Who are you to say who is blind? That's for god and god alone. You need to stop worrying about others and concentrate on yourself.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano responds to me:

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Which means I am in a position to declare on sin.

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Not according to your holy book. How can you remove the mote in your brother's eye when there is this great plank in your own?

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I can't say I follow the logic behind this.

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Your continual need to tell others about what they are doing is to service your own vanity and pride, not the glory of god.

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As a once blind person who now sees

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But you just said we're all sinners. Therefore, you still don't see. It is not for you to say who does and who does not see. You need to stop worrying about others and start paying attention to your own problems.

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I go by the biblical model

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No, you go by the iano model: You think you know the mind of god and are in a position to tell others what god thinks. This despite the fact that your god told you specifically that you don't, you never will, and you had best stop trying.

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Besides, if I was to condemn another I'd be a hypocrite - for I'm a sinner too.

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And yet, you claim you see. You can't have it both ways.Hint: The mere act of calling something a "sin" is condemnation. You are not equipped to determine what is and what is not a sin.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano responds to me:

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Telling someone they are a sinner...

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...requires that you know the person's actions and have the mind of god to make the determination. You have neither. Therefore, it is not for you to say. Stop worrying about others and start paying attention to yourself.

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Intrinsic in the notion of solutions to problems is the notion of a problem existing in the first place.

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But only god can determine if there is a problem of sin. Not you. Your continual need to tell others about what they are doing is to serve your own vanity and pride, not the glory of god.

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Given that telling folk of the gospel is an instruction from God, I do think it honouring to God to follow that instruction.

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And you think you rise to that level? What a very high opinion you have of yourself.By the way, the gospels supposedly aren't the words of the apostles but rather the words of Jesus. Are you now claiming that you're at the same level as Jesus?

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I'm not sure of any biblical warrant for the idea of a saved sinner not being able to see.

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It's simple logic: Those who don't sin are the ones who can see. After all, if you can see, then you wouldn't sin. If we're all sinners, even you, then none of us can see, including you.

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Lets agree on a middle ground.

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No, let's not. That would be a logical error. Either you see or you don't. Your holy book claims that only one person can truly see, so unless you are trying to say you are god....

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I go by iano's view of the biblical model.

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You are free to do so. But, let us not pretend that it is based upon the text.

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The former is merely raportage as to what I believe to be the case.

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Again, you are in no position to determine what is or is not a sin, thus you are in no position to report on anything as you do not know. Only god can see.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Silent H responds to me:

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what is incorrect in iano stating that according to God's rule book X is a sin, and if they want to follow Xianity, they need to keep that in mind?

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There is a difference between saying, "This book has X to say about action Y," and saying, "You are engaging in action Y."Especially concerning homosexuality which the Bible is pretty quiet about, as we understand the concept.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano responds to me:

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Anyone doing the above is now in a position to tell another person that they are a sinner

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However, you are not in a position to say for what. Unless you're going to say that everything humans do is necessarily a sin (which makes the entire concept of "sin" meaningless), then you are in no position to say if anything anybody does is actually a sin. That is for god.

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Clearly step 2) can be expanded upon to include statements on specific sins.

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No, only god can say that. You can say that god says that, but you are in no position to determine if someone is or is not living up to god's standards. You are not god.How can you remove the mote in your brother's eye when there is this great plank in your own?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano responds to me:

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I was dealing with the specific objection you made that said I was not in a position to tell someone they are a sinner.

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Let's not be disingenuous, shall we? If you don't know what someone has sinned for, you're not really in a position to say that they have sinned.How can you remove the mote in your brother's eye when there is this great plank in your own?

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You seem to accept that yourself.

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No, I don't. You are not in any position to say anything about anybody else's life. Only your own. Your own book tells you this.How can you remove the mote in your brother's eye when there is this great plank in your own?

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If you accept that this 2 step process

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And I don't. So now what?

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As pointed out before, I could attach "I believe that this is what God says through a book I believe is his word" onto every statement I make.

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Which would make everything you say meaningless to the question at hand. This isn't about you. You are in no place to judge anything. That may, indeed, be what the book says. And it may, indeed, be god's opinion. But what does that have to do with anybody outside of the book? You are in no position to say it applies to anybody anywhere because that is judgement and judgement is god's responsibility, not yours.How can you remove the mote in your brothers' eye when there is this great plank in your own?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

iano responds to me:

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I suppose it depend very much on your concept of homosexual acts - which the Bible is not at all silent about.

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Incorrect. The Bible is pretty quiet about it. It makes no mention of same-sex sexual activity for the sake of same-sex sexual activity. It always puts it in the context of ritualistic practices. Last time I checked, most people didn't have sex with temple prostitutes.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Silent H responds to me:

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I agree with your statement, but I have not seen iano claim that someone is gay.

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Non sequitur. Nobody is talking about whether or not iano is claiming somebody is gay.

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For those that are gay, he points out that a common Xian conception is that homosexuality is a sin.

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Incorrect. Iano is not simply pointing out that there are people who claim to be Christian who claim that the Bible says that being gay is a sin.Iano is directly stating that being gay is a sin. That, however, is both judgement and unjustified as there is nothing in the Bible that says that.And that's why his attempts to tell others so are necessarily judgement. He has gone beyond merely stating that there are passages to stating what it is that they mean.

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it seems errant to claim the Bible as a whole is quiet on homosexuality.

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Well, it does celebrate David and Jonathan, yes, but on the whole, it doesn't talk about homosexuality as we understand it. Thus, the old joke: There are four passages in the Bible regulating same-sex sexual activity while there are hundreds regulating mixed-sex sexual activity. This doesn't mean god loves straight people any less than gay people...just that straights need more supervision.

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there are statements against homosexuality in the NT which are not in dispute as to what they mean

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Actually, those refer to temple prostitution, too. "Arsenkoitai" is a word that Paul made up.

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But homosexuality is pretty clearly a negative feature of human life, according to all of them.

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No, not to all of them. There are many Christian sects who don't have this problem. Let us not forget, the Catholic church was performing same-sex marriage ceremonies up until the recent past.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.