Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,889 Year: 4,146/9,624 Month: 1,017/974 Week: 344/286 Day: 0/65 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   For those concerned with Free Speech (or Porn), it is time to get active.
CK
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 76 of 304 (220346)
06-28-2005 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Silent H
06-28-2005 6:03 AM


Re: Summary response
Sadly it looks like I will have to bat for the other side.
Let's start with my point about Pornography being Symbolic speech and thus should not be protected in the same way as other forms of speech. It is quite clear, that soon the courts will overturn the protection allowed to unpatrotic flagburners (protected by this misunderstanding of what free speech actually is).
Moreover,I cannot see why a money-making enterprise NOT be compelled to produce accurate records? Why should your industry be any different?
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 06:17 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 6:03 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 8:12 AM CK has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 304 (220349)
06-28-2005 6:24 AM


Of COURSE it has always existed. Didn't I SAY that? But SANE SOCIETIES do not make it an in-your-face public thing. The insane ones have a terrific record of collapsing, you want to emulate those? That IS where we're headed, with the help of the kind of thinking on this thread.
The fact is that this did NOT get going in this country until the 60s and now we ARE awash in it and it is NOT what the Constitution had in mind, that is a perversion of the intent of the Constitution.
But this is just to be clear in case there was some confusion. I KNOW you don't care and you just have more nasty personal things to say to me and I'm not listening.
Recap: Yes, I do agree with myself:
Message 5
Just another case of the noble concept of American freedom being co-opted to an ignoble cause. We're awash in these since the sixties. Wish the Founders would come back and tell you guys a thing or two.
Message 56
To all those who replied to my one post with their fallacious reasoning:
1) The private lives of the founders have nothing to do with what they would establish in law as a Right or a Freedom. People in those days had more sense than to justify their sins in public as is now so commonly done -- since the sixties lefties started turning our Constitution inside out and extending rights and freedoms to the previously criminal and socially unacceptable, as defined by every society on earth up until now.
2) The fact that pornography has always existed is an equally bogus point. [THIS IS NOT TO BE READ TO SAY I DENY THAT IT EXISTED, BUT THE OPPOSITE] It has never been treated as legitimate and flaunted before the public as it is now [IN THIS COUNTRY, and WHEREVER IT HAS BEEN THE SOCIETY HAS COME UNDER GOD'S JUDGMENT FOR IT], and justifed as a Right. Carry on. I'm through here.
Message 72
So "the founders" all 200 or so of them are now reduced to Franklin and Jefferson. Figures.
NOW I'm through here.

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 6:38 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 82 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 7:30 AM Faith has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 78 of 304 (220350)
06-28-2005 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
06-28-2005 6:24 AM


quote:
I KNOW you don't care and you just have more nasty personal things to say to me and I'm not listening.
Your constant childish desire to make all of the the threads about you and any perceived slight that you feel is becoming very tiring. Can you not allow the grown-ups to have a debate in peace?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 06-28-2005 6:24 AM Faith has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 304 (220353)
06-28-2005 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Silent H
06-27-2005 6:43 PM


Re: As a key adovocado of censorship...
I understand your concerns about erosion of free speech. It's just that I think the hardcore, heterosexual "porn industry" is a dirty business, run by a bunch of pimps who enslave women to do this stuff.
I don't know this for a fact, of course; but I suspect it.
And if they can keep making money at it, they'll keep doing it.
So I'm concerned not just about the message but about the messenger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Silent H, posted 06-27-2005 6:43 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 7:21 AM robinrohan has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 80 of 304 (220354)
06-28-2005 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tal
06-27-2005 3:55 PM


Oh BTW Tal, have you heard about BTK?
What do we need to protect our kids from?
... BTK Killer? Here'd the news about this guy which might explain his self-professed problems with sex. And as it stands he was accused of straight out killing and not sexually assaulting them... from this cnn article.
Killer a church president
Rader, who had been the president of his Lutheran church council, taunted authorities and the media with letters and packages he sent them over several years, some with before-and-after photos of the victims.
Christ Lutheran Church pastor Michael Clark said Rader, also a former Boy Scout leader, had been involved in church leadership for 30 years and was elected church council president just before his arrest.
Hmmmmm. Maybe he got his best ideas from Ezekial 23:20, Genesis 19:1-8, and Judges 19:22-29.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tal, posted 06-27-2005 3:55 PM Tal has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 81 of 304 (220355)
06-28-2005 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by robinrohan
06-28-2005 7:09 AM


Re: As a key adovocado of censorship...
I understand your concerns about erosion of free speech. It's just that I think the hardcore, heterosexual "porn industry" is a dirty business, run by a bunch of pimps who enslave women to do this stuff.
First of all that is not a fact. It may have been true back when it was illegal, or as it was coming out of illegality and still cost some amount of money to make.
Legalization, as it has always been proven by history, reduces connections between criminal organizations and ANY human activity.
Second, you have missed my point that if that is what you are concerned about, then this legislation does NOTHING to stop that. How would it?
Indeed what it is going to stop are the women and couples who run their own sites and are trying to combat the stereotypes by corporate porn, and ensure their are no abuses involved. I know of three that are already closing up shop. You have just handed more money to those that are more likely pimps running girls they can control. Good job.
So I'm concerned not just about the message but about the messenger.
If I remember right, you are from Australia, so you might not know of a thing called Prohibition. During that time we made alcohol illegal. They used the exact same argument you did. Alcohol meant empowering criminals who were killing people. Well we relegalized it and I can be pretty certain that most local pub owners are not mafia dons.
You are using mistaken hyperbole as a backing for legislation which does not address what you are concerned about at all, and can be used in the future against others including yourself.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 7:09 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 7:34 AM Silent H has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 82 of 304 (220356)
06-28-2005 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
06-28-2005 6:24 AM


But SANE SOCIETIES do not make it an in-your-face public thing. The insane ones have a terrific record of collapsing, you want to emulate those?
Who are you to judge what is a sane society? The are less sane because they collapsed? Let me explain something to you... all societies except the ones existing today collapsed. That includes all the major Xian dominated kingdoms.
I might add that one of those INSANE societies was doing just fine until after it adopted Xianity and began to persecute sexuality in abundance. I don't fault that for its fall but pointing out your error in associating blame.
Yes I would love for the US to have a run as long as some of those insane societies as they have been some of the longest running nations on earth.
The fact is that this did NOT get going in this country until the 60s and now we ARE awash in it and it is NOT what the Constitution had in mind, that is a perversion of the intent of the Constitution.
Again, who are you to tell me what the intent of the Constitution is? If it were not recognized that it was the intent of the Constitution to protect such speech then there would be no need for the legislation we are discussing.
Did you even read anything being discussed? We are discussing legislation meant to stop people from doing something legal, by threatening them with hard punishment for simple recordkeeping and FONT SIZE errors! It also removes any possibility of working in anonymity and requires people to hand to the public their name and exact address.
I notice you do not put your full name and address on this forum. Do you think it would be great if we forced you to do so as a prerequisite for forum posting?
I KNOW you don't care and you just have more nasty personal things to say to me and I'm not listening.
That's fine you can keep your fingers in your ears and go "nyah nyah nyah I can't hear you" as this is a posted forum and so you can still read my reply.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 06-28-2005 6:24 AM Faith has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 304 (220358)
06-28-2005 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Silent H
06-28-2005 7:21 AM


Re: As a key adovocado of censorship...
First of all that is not a fact. It may have been true back when it was illegal, or as it was coming out of illegality and still cost some amount of money to make.
I read this book by Linda Lovelace (porn queen, 60s) who said she was forced to do it because she had a gun pointed at her. Her report sounded authentic to me. Her movie went mainstream.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 7:21 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 7:41 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 86 by Dr Jack, posted 06-28-2005 7:57 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 93 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 8:19 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 127 by lfen, posted 06-28-2005 11:58 AM robinrohan has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 84 of 304 (220359)
06-28-2005 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by robinrohan
06-28-2005 7:34 AM


Re: As a key adovocado of censorship...
And how does that go against the remark that Holmes made?
Abuse of people is not something that is limited to pornography - if you want to close down businesses that have (real honest-to-god) slaves you need to start with the cleaners, resturants, clothing industry etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 7:34 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 7:50 AM CK has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 304 (220360)
06-28-2005 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by CK
06-28-2005 7:41 AM


Re: As a key adovocado of censorship...
if you want to close down businesses that have (real honest-to-god) slaves you need to start with the cleaners, resturants, clothing industry etc.
They have guns pointed at them? Work in this restaurant or I will kill you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 7:41 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 8:02 AM robinrohan has replied

Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 86 of 304 (220361)
06-28-2005 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by robinrohan
06-28-2005 7:34 AM


Re: As a key adovocado of censorship...
I read this book by Linda Lovelace (porn queen, 60s) who said she was forced to do it because she had a gun pointed at her. Her report sounded authentic to me. Her movie went mainstream.
A gun pointed at her by her husband. Linda Lovelace was abused, that is true, but she was abused by her husband not by the porn industry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 7:34 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 8:04 AM Dr Jack has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 87 of 304 (220363)
06-28-2005 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by robinrohan
06-28-2005 7:50 AM


Re: As a key adovocado of censorship...
Pretty much yes - What do you think Illegals do otherwise?
The general deal is this - they smuggle you out and then you are owned by the smugglers body and soul. If you are lucky this means going to work in a resturants that will pay for your services. Saying "I don't want to do this" can involve all sorts of nasty things upto and including murder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 7:50 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 8:06 AM CK has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 304 (220364)
06-28-2005 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Dr Jack
06-28-2005 7:57 AM


Re: As a key adovocado of censorship...
A gun pointed at her by her husband. Linda Lovelace was abused, that is true, but she was abused by her husband not by the porn industry.
She was also forced to marry this pimp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Dr Jack, posted 06-28-2005 7:57 AM Dr Jack has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 304 (220365)
06-28-2005 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by CK
06-28-2005 8:02 AM


Re: As a key adovocado of censorship...
What do you think Illegals do otherwise?
You are referring to a totally different problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 8:02 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 8:14 AM robinrohan has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 90 of 304 (220369)
06-28-2005 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by CK
06-28-2005 6:11 AM


Re: Summary response
I might wonder why we end up giving more credence to the other side than they themselves do.
Let's start with my point about Pornography being Symbolic speech and thus should not be protected in the same way as other forms of speech. It is quite clear, that soon the courts will overturn the protection allowed to unpatrotic flagburners (protected by this misunderstanding of what free speech actually is).
Symbolic speech is important and can have protection. If burning the flag is symbolic and so unprotected, then ironically so would waving the flag. Currently provocative speech would be the defining line on what is not protected.
More important is that communication is not just verbal or written, otherwise we would not have paintings or movies. We can understand visual elements have the power to communicate ideas and lead to change.
This is perhaps the second bit of irony. One of the arguments by those against sexual imagery is that it could lead to a change in society. Thus they are admitting that it has a power to communicate and effect change. If something has that power then it certainly has a reason to be protected by the Constitution as speech.
Once we agree to the idea that the govt should be able to suppress communication that would lead to change in society that the majority would not like to see happen, then there is no longer any real right to protest or petition the govt for redress of grievances. And there no longer would be a sense of free speech.
Moreover,I cannot see why a money-making enterprise NOT be compelled to produce accurate records? Why should your industry be any different?
Yes it certainly sounds simple. Some of this also might have made sense when the primary means of making sexually graphic content was large scale corporate enterprises.
In that case people usually were hired as actors and actresses to make the imagery that was being shown. And why shouldn't the production company keep some basic records on who they hire? That does not seem odd.
What does seem odd is the overabundant amount of records that are necessary for each employee which sets a burden on the employer and employee alike. They are more like rap sheets and in depth investigations conducted by the employer so that detectives on a case don't have to have to do any leg work.
This of course is extremely invasive of people who might want to work in the industry as well as prone to error in some measure especially as new works are added to someone's resume, or stage names change.
They also require unusually strict ways of storing the info for ease of investigators turning production companies into secretaries for the detectives, on top of being detectives themselves. Why is the lack of a fully crossreferenced database something that should cost a person years of their life? There is no way that could cost so much valuable time to an officer in an investigation that they would lose their case.
And of course there is the need to have specific office hours for years after production... thus you go bankrupt yet still hold office hours for years, complete with warehousing your product for direct perusal. No other company is held to quite that standard, even the military... and that has more of a reason for accuracy.
One question which is raised throughout is how is this not just asking sexual content providers to "stock lakes" for fishing expeditions. Clearly some producers do not even make product that this is intended to help. If I specialize in geriatric porn, exactly what chance is there that one of them could have been a child? Yet one would have to keep records and could be jailed for not having a complete record on an obvious 60 year old. So what could that data be used for... for further harassment and fishing for other charges.
Now this is all under the past paradigm of corporate porn. That is not the end all be all of sexual imagery.
This will result in ending much nonporn art from outside the US making it in for US viewers to watch. Nations not as prudish do allow material that would be caught by this legislation and it is doubtful nonUS companies are going to bother complying with US regulations and give up on the US market. For film or other art buffs in the US, that should be a pretty major concern. We are closing US markets to foreign film.
There is also the growing trend of private producers of erotica, or art that is sexually graphic. They are rising to counter corporate domination due to the new media which makes production really cheap... anyone can make it and so communicate what they believe is real. This includes individuals and couples making the exact type of content that is less likely to be seen in corporations who have to secure a fan base.
Indeed there are couples who show that sex can be fun and monogamous within a marriage. Those people would be sent to jail for inaccurate records (not to mention labelling).
Many independents have day jobs and this is just a way to express themselves with costs used to cover bandwidth or shipping charges. Yet that automatically makes them "commercial producers". That is almost an absurdity. And these independents often do not employ anyone, they just use themselves and friends or acquaintances. It is certainly the case that friends and acquaintances might not mind being seen on a site but do not want to have to divulge their entire life history to do so. There is a loss of anonymity which is CRUCIAL to FREE SPEECH... even if it gets dubbed commercial as a technicality.
Worse still for independents is the requirement to show name and address to the world. That is an incredible requirement which is not seen for other businesses. There is no reason an investigator cannot figure out who he has to contact with less amount of information broadcast to the world.
And then recordkeeping becomes a hassle as well. When one is not hiring people it is bizarre to get work histories and create databases for such things and then expect to keep additional set office hours JUST FOR THE POLICE.
Many don't even work more than one to two hours a month because they don't have the time. Now for recordkeeping duties they must have official 20 hours a week sitting at home just in case an officer wants to drop by at any minute... and that for somewhere between 5-10 years AFTER they stop running their site, or selling videos.
Suddenly the hobby of expressing yourself sexually is forced into a burdensome corporate model you can't possibly be expected to keep, except by becoming a corporation. End of hobby. End of communication.
These people did not work with those making such content, including for the "hobby" independent market, in order to draft their agenda. They were looking for ways to put the hurt on people making AND VIEWING such content. They even rejected solutions proposed by industry which might have helped out the hobbiest as well.
These people were not looking to create a way for people producing such imagery to help produce records in such a way as to reduce a potential problem in the industry... which is the goal of accurate record keeping in other industries. This was to create problems within an industry so that they could go fishing on anyone who might stick it out and hit them on minor technical violations.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 6:11 AM CK has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024