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Author Topic:   Ruling: No Separation of Church and State?
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 2 of 66 (272161)
12-23-2005 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
12-23-2005 4:36 PM


it's not in the Constitution
The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the US Constitution, the judge observed. He added that American history "is replete with governmental acknowledgment and in some cases, accommodation of religion.
And it's not how the Constitution was interpreted for 150 years. Sorry but if this true, the judge is right. There is no "separation clause" in the Constitution. It is indeed an "extra-constitutional construct" that has outlived it's usefulness.
The question should be whether any law has been passed respecting an establishment of religion. If no law has been passed, then it's Constitutional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2005 4:36 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2005 4:56 PM randman has replied
 Message 13 by Nuggin, posted 12-24-2005 3:42 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 4 of 66 (272171)
12-23-2005 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Silent H
12-23-2005 4:56 PM


Re: it's not in the Constitution
The term "wall of separation" was a Baptist term with a specific historical meaning at the time, and completely different than the concept of separation today. Regardless, it's not in the Constitution.
and all women entering are required to wear burkas and men must be unshaved... that would be great by you because it was a policy decision, rather than a law?
If it was enforced behaviour with penalties, it is a de facto law. Now, putting up displays, Christian or Moslem or whatever, is not a de facto law.
Capische?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2005 4:56 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2005 5:17 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 7 of 66 (272186)
12-23-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Silent H
12-23-2005 5:17 PM


Re: it's not in the Constitution
In the Danbury letter Jefferson used the phrase and it was quite clear there and elsewhere that he was not refering to the weak version you pretend to.
Wrong Holmes. You are the one lying here. He was writing to the Danbury Baptists, and thus using their term. It's like the term pro-life. Pretty much everyone knows the term pro-life means anti-abortion, right? Some may argue it means anti-death penalty, and some pro-lifers are anti-death penalty, but that's not what the term means. Most pro-lifers are not necessarily against the death penalty.
So 200 years from now, someone reading a letter written to Dr Dobson claiming the Constitution is fully in accordance with his concerns and is "pro-life" should not refer to whatever "pro-life" means 200 years from now, but what it means today, and today it means anti-abortion.
You are reading a modernist interpretation of the term separation of Church and State back into history, and you are wrong. I am sorry that you cannot come to grips with historical reality, but it's not my fault that you cannot. The term "separation of Church and State" stems straight out of Anabaptism, not the Enlightenment.

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 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2005 5:17 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 11 of 66 (272261)
12-23-2005 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Silent H
12-23-2005 5:17 PM


Re: it's not in the Constitution
It's quite clear that the term separation of Church and State stems from the Anabaptists and indeed is qualitatively different than the pro-secularist positiuon you advance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2005 5:17 PM Silent H has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 14 of 66 (272360)
12-24-2005 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Nuggin
12-24-2005 3:42 AM


Re: Respecting ...?
"Respecting" simply means "concerning." It has nothing to do with respect. Congress is just forbidden from regulating religion. That's all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Nuggin, posted 12-24-2005 3:42 AM Nuggin has not replied

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