Does Islam need a Reformation?

The rebuttal has been answered ad nauseum. When are you going to recognize that your point has been defeated.This message has been edited by Faith, 07-30-2005 11:11 AM

With repetition of the original claim. Why would you expect that to constitute effective debate?When are you actually going to address my points?

You have done nothing but repeat what has been answered ad nauseum. When are you going to stop repeating yourself?

This is all bogus red herring as usual. What God gives as laws to be obeyed by His own people, who have made a covenant with Him to obey His commands, has nothing to do with the commands to slaughter UNBELIEVERS that are found in the Koran.

When you actually address the question. Why should I believe that Rudolph's actions aren't supported by a literal reading of the Bible - your assertion - when theologians like James Dobson and Fred Phelps - who's lead a Christian ministry for longer than you've probably been alive - tell me that his actions are, and that your interpretation of the Bible is wrong because you're out of touch with the Holy Spirit?I don't believe that his interpretation or yours is supported Biblically. Both of you are sure that I'm wrong. Why should I accept your assertions of your own correctness at face value? You use words like "fringe" to describe Christian Identity, but why should I believe you when you say that, since you're out on the fringe yourself?

James Dobson has never supported killing abortionists, and I don't know Fred Phelps so if you would like to support with some quotes and references this continuing red herring that attacks the meek Christ and lets the murderous Mohammed off the hook, I will see if they merit attention.

Chapter and verse Faith. Where in the bible does it CLEARLY state that those laws arin't to be followed by ALL gods people, both the old covenant and the new?Chapter and verse!

The fact that they are reported in historical context and not addressed to the reader is obvious. This is not the case with the commands to kill that are given in the Koran, as quoted and discussed at length already on this thread.

Leviticus 24:16
anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.Deuteronomy 17:2-7
2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. 6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.Ezekiel 23:46-48
46 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Bring a mob against them and give them over to terror and plunder. 47 The mob will stone them and cut them down with their swords; they will kill their sons and daughters and burn down their houses.48 "So I will put an end to lewdness in the land, that all women may take warning and not imitate you. 49 You will suffer the penalty for your lewdness and bear the consequences of your sins of idolatry. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD."You could still be stoned for rather trivial things even in Jesus's time.Luke 20:3-5
3 He replied, "I will also ask you a question. Tell me, 4 John's baptismwas it from heaven, or from men?"
5 They discussed it among themselves and said, "If we say, 'From heaven,' he will ask, 'Why didn't you believe him?' 6But if we say, 'From men,' all the people will stone us, because they are persuaded that John was a prophet."Jesus thinks that stoning is a bad idea in John 8 but they sure as heck were ready to do it.Even he fled from what seemed to be the standard punishment for blasphemy. in John 858 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.Seems to me if I were a quote mining Christian of a particular variety I could find plenty of direct example and command to stone sinners. Of course this is totally out of context but you simply CANNOT use the no true scotsman on this one. Just because there are no stoning terrorists right now in the public interest does not mean that there are not parallels in this situation.

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The context is the laws God gave to the Israelites. They applied to the Israelites and to nobody else. They were never enacted against outsiders. There were still be enforced among the Jews in Jesus' time. Why should that be a surprise? Jesus showed that all are sinners and that God's mercy is extended to sinners when He told those about the stone the woman caught in adultery to let the one without sin throw the first stone. He changed the rules right then and there.{EDITED to eliminate shouting through all capsThis message has been edited by Faith, 07-30-2005 04:28 PM

I'm gone for a while.Sad to see so many here, even Christians, apparently preferring Barabbas to Christ.

I am sure it can be argued that both an interpretation that holds the audience was to the the reader and the audience to be the Israelites are legitimate. Unless there is something substantive that you can use to show otherwise.

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Realy? Cuz last time I checked the laws in levuiticus admonished us to stone adulterers, stone homsexuals, stone unruley children, stone just about anyone. How are those things in a historical context?

Of course he did. SO when you take the Bible in context it is easy to see that. See my previous post with regards to your one and only correct interpretation about the scriptures.Please kindly avoid "shouting" in the forum. Caps should be used for specific emphasis. Any other use makes it difficult to read and very hard to respect.

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How about you answer the question, for the tenth or so time now. Why should I believe you when you say that violence isn't supported by the Bible, when so many others say that it is? Why is your interpretation superior to theirs? Like I said I won't support his obscenity by linking to it in a public forum, but you're welcome to begin with his Wikipedia entry.