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Author Topic:   Does Islam need a Reformation?
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 166 of 300 (227903)
07-30-2005 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by jar
07-30-2005 4:47 PM


Re: Location, location, location.
We can go back and forth on this, but there is a bottom line of ovewhelming evidenece that you're nitpicking: Jews are not going around this earth trying to conquer the world for judiasm, demanding that all be ruled according to jewish law. Nor has there ever, not once, been such a Jewish movement. On the other hadn there has been such an Isalmic movement from day one of the faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by jar, posted 07-30-2005 4:47 PM jar has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 167 of 300 (227919)
07-30-2005 5:15 PM


A poignant story from the Islamic civil war
This is such a sad, yet compelling, story, that I hope all of you will not mind that i post it all. It is, truly, a poignant tale, one revealing the grief that Muslims endure during this ongoing Islamic civil war.
REAL MUSLIMS & FALSE MUSLIMS
by George Jonas
National Post
July 11, 2005
The interviewer was asking about the terrorists. "They aren't Muslims," replied the distraught man, clutching a photograph. Behind him, an older man nodded. "They aren't even human."
The two men in the NBC news clip wore traditional Bangladeshi clothes. A caption identified one as Shamsul. They were being interviewed in a
Muslim-populated area of London, near the station where one of the bombs went off. Both looked unprepossessing, but the snapshot one held up to the camera showed a young woman of surprising beauty. "Daughter," the man identified as Shamsul said. Apparently she was still missing, 36 hours after the explosion.
The older man was the woman's grandfather. "I used to hold her, like this " he explained, as if an accurate demonstration of how he held his granddaughter 20 years ago might aid in her recovery. The father was still responding to the earlier question. "They can say, who did this, that they're Muslims," he repeated, "but they're not."
The camera lingered on his face as he desperately waited for confirmation from someone, anyone, that the terrorists didn't share his faith. There was none forthcoming. In his white tunic, wearing a fez-shaped headgear, Shamsul looked like a person in denial. Or like someone who had just suffered a devastating triple loss, robbed in an instant of his daughter, his religion, and his reputation.
Shamsul seemed to anticipate that the people who "did this" in London will call themselves Muslim, just as the people who did Madrid on March 11, 2004, or the people who did New York and Washington on September 11, 2001, called themselves Muslim. When he said "they aren't Muslim" he meant that terrorists who blow up trains or fly passenger jets into office towers may claim, or even think, they're acting for Islam, but they aren't. People who act for Islam are like Shamsul. They work hard, raise sturdy sons and beautiful daughters, and believe that God is merciful and killing is wrong.
Real Muslims blow up nothing. On the contrary. Real Muslims, or their
beautiful children, risk getting blown up themselves when they travel in planes, trains, or buses targeted by false Muslims.
It's impossible not to sympathize with a man who, in the space of a few minutes on an ordinary Thursday morning, not only loses a precious child to a savage band of barbarians, but his religion as well. After claiming the life of his daughter, the feral assassins claim Shamsul's spiritual life by reducing his Islam, a complex and compassionate faith of mercy and tolerance, to a primitive and brutal creed of fanaticism, malice, and mayhem. And then, adding a final insult to injury, his neighbours in the heart of Europe, instead of recognizing a fellow victim, may look at him with fear, loathing, and suspicion because he shares, even if only nominally, the religion of his daughter's murderers, possibly along with their garb, voice, appearance, and gestures.
It would be comforting to agree with the distraught Shamsul that he alone is the real Muslim, and the terrorists aren't. But the unhappy truth is that they're both real. In the House of Islam there are many rooms. Pretending that those who blow up things aren't real Muslims may postpone waking up to harsh reality, but sleeping through a war isn't a viable option. And we ARE at war: At war with a branch of Islam.
We're not at war with "terrorism." Terrorism is a weapon, not an opponent. We've been at war with militant, fundamentalist Islam, that uses terrorism as a weapon.
Of course, militant Islam has been at war with Shamsul's moderate Islam as well. Shamsul's is the bigger war. Muslim victims of Muslim violence dwarf non-Muslim victims. The first number in the millions (counting Bangladesh, Saddam's depredations against Kurds and Shiites, the Iran-Iraqi war, etc.) Non-Muslim fatalities barely add up to twenty thousand, even after decades of low-grade global terrorism, Kashmir, Chechnya, two Gulf wars, and 9/11.
There have been three main strands of violence running through the
Arab/Muslim world since World War II, two secular and one religious. One was quasi-Marxist and resulted in such terrorist organizations as George Habash's Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, founded in 1967. The PFLP engaged in some spectacular hijacking operations throughout the 1970's. The other secular strand was Arab national-socialistic, spawning such Nasserite and Baathist regimes as Col. Gaddafy's in Libya, the al-Assad-family's in Syria, and Saddam Hussein's in Iraq. As for Yasser Arafat's PLO, it straddled some say, bridged the Marxist an national-socialistic shores of the pan-Arab stream, alternately quarreling with, and borrowing from, both sides.
Terrorism was part of Marxist and pan-Arab nationalism, but the worst
violence emerged from Islam's religious revival. Initially encouraged by the West to counteract Marxist influence, militant Islam grew in the hothouses of Wahabbi oil-sheiks, the madrases of Pakistan, the
CIA-sponsored training camps of Afghanistan, and the revolutionary councils of theocratic Iran. Eventually it resulted in al-Qaeda, as mobile, intangible, and destructive as fire.
The malevolent flame followed Shamsul to London. He needs our help to put it out. We need Shamsul's.

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2005 5:50 PM CanadianSteve has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 168 of 300 (227942)
07-30-2005 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by CanadianSteve
07-30-2005 5:15 PM


Re: A poignant story from the Islamic civil war
It's a sad story, but it's simply more of what I've been criticising you and Faith for in this thread - George Jonas offers no support for his assertion that Shamsul is wrong and he (and you and Faith) are right.
I don't see any reason to take Jonas's word (or you and Faith's) over Shamsul's. Shamsul is actually a Muslim, at least. I'm considerably more inclined to take his word over yours in this matter.
Shamsul knows, intimately, what it means to be a Muslim. At best you and Faith, and probably Jonas, have only a once-removed intellectual understanding. (Neither of you are even able to read the Qu'ran in its original language.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-30-2005 5:15 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-30-2005 8:05 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 169 of 300 (227948)
07-30-2005 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by jar
07-30-2005 4:44 PM


Re: The usual out of context red herring from jar
It is about the STRANGER AMONG YOU. That is said in many places in the OT, as they always had many "strangers" among them, and if that isn't enough for you, consider that none of these laws WERE ever applied outside the circle of the people of Israel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 07-30-2005 4:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 07-30-2005 6:24 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 185 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2005 10:36 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 300 (227949)
07-30-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by CanadianSteve
07-30-2005 4:50 PM


Re: Well, there are commands in the Bible to kill people.
But those are political movements, not religious. Even the IRA is more political than religious. Yes, it wants N Ireleand to be Catholic. But it is not acting for G-d, nor is it conducting a worldwide Jihad. Now, if catholics worldwide, no matter their nation of origin, were conducting a Jihad against all non catholics worldwide (and against non jihadis catholics too), then we'd have an analogy.
Totally right, but you'll never get the diehard anti-Christians, even those who call themselves Christians, to acknowledge such obvious facts. They are far more interested in defending the jihadists than being fair to Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-30-2005 4:50 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 171 of 300 (227952)
07-30-2005 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Faith
07-30-2005 6:21 PM


Re: The usual out of context red herring from jar
It applied to the stranger. Kill both believer and non-believer. You finally agree to that.
Now we can go on.
Show where it does not apply anywhere an Israeli might be?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 6:21 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-30-2005 8:10 PM jar has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 172 of 300 (227967)
07-30-2005 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by crashfrog
07-30-2005 5:50 PM


Re: A poignant story from the Islamic civil war
Yes, Shamsul, as a Muslim, knows what islam is. Now, what if I quote other muslims that say he is wrong - and there are millions of them, including thousands of imams and dozens of well-known theologians? Who'se to say that they are not right, and Shamsul wrong? It is evident that the Islam is undergoing now, as it has from its advent, a theological civil war. Both sides are right. We can only hope for all our sakes that Shamsul's side will win out, totally, once and for all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2005 5:50 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2005 10:33 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 173 of 300 (227968)
07-30-2005 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by jar
07-30-2005 6:24 PM


Re: The usual out of context red herring from jar
This is both a tangent and a red herring. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, like the War Verses in judaism. There is no order to kill and conquer all others for judasim.
Moreover, unlike Islam and the Koran, Jews do not take the OT to be the inerrant, exact word of G-d. It has, thusly, been subject to huge amounts of theological intepretation and debate for over 2,000 years. The old joke about there being two Jews and three arguments arises from this tradition.
In contrast, the Koran says, and Muslims believe, that it it the precise, exact, word for word, message of Allah, as told to Mohammed. That suggests that interpretaion is not even possible in any general sense, and very little even within specifics.
That this distinction matters, is evidenced in the history of Jews vs. the history of Muslims.
And yet, again, democracy will solve the problem.

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 Message 171 by jar, posted 07-30-2005 6:24 PM jar has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6383 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 174 of 300 (227979)
07-30-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by CanadianSteve
07-29-2005 11:26 PM


The many versus the one
quote:
many islamic nations allied with Hitler
Could you give us a list of these many Islamic nations that allied with Hitler?
Almost all of your reply to this is either about individuals or what happened after the war - jolly interesting and all that but absolutely nothing to do with answering the question I asked.
After reading through all that the list of Islamic nations allied with Hitler is one (Iraq), right?
A little more digging suggests that Iraq was allied with Germany for a period of a few months following a coup by an Iraqi nationalist who was motivated at least partly by a desire to end British influence in his country (the enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that). Never mind, you've got the first entry in your list.
I'm still waiting for a list of many Islamic nations allied with Hitler.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-29-2005 11:26 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-30-2005 9:25 PM MangyTiger has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 175 of 300 (227980)
07-30-2005 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by MangyTiger
07-30-2005 9:11 PM


Re: The many versus the one
Not just iraq, but the region that is now the West bank, Jerusalem and gaza. Moreover, what transpired immediately after the war suggests levels of cooperation during the war as well. Nations that might have allied with the allies, did not, choosing to play footsies with the nazis, where their sympathies lay.
I suppose it's reasonable to argue that i wrongly implied a significant degree of military alliance. But, the point I made (quickly, in passing), was meant to reveal where Arab sympathies lay. That implication remains valid. It is important in explaining the holocaust demands of the Arab world to this very day, and it explains, in part, the ideological connection between two forms of fascism: Nazism and Islamism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2005 9:11 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2005 9:45 PM CanadianSteve has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6383 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 176 of 300 (227981)
07-30-2005 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by jar
07-30-2005 9:36 AM


Re: Not quite fair CK
Fanatics see what they want. They can be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Aethist, Hindu, Buddhist or Agnostic.
But not Apathetic
Sorry, after catching up on five pages of this thread in one go I couldn't resist...

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 07-30-2005 9:36 AM jar has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6383 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 177 of 300 (227983)
07-30-2005 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by CanadianSteve
07-30-2005 9:25 PM


Re: The many versus the one
Not just iraq, but the region that is now the West bank, Jerusalem and gaza
Unless I'm very much mistaken that area wasn't a nation at the time. In fact it was part of the British Mandate Of Palestine granted by the League Of Nations (i.e. it was governed by Britain). Kind of hard to see how that can be considered a nation allied with Hitler.
Still got a list of one.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-30-2005 9:25 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-30-2005 9:52 PM MangyTiger has replied
 Message 179 by jar, posted 07-30-2005 9:57 PM MangyTiger has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 178 of 300 (227984)
07-30-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by MangyTiger
07-30-2005 9:45 PM


Re: The many versus the one
true, not a state...kind of. The West Bank was closely aligned with Jordan, as was Arab jerusalem, and Gaza with Egypt. Egypt maintained close contacts with the nazis throughout the war, and did not hide its sympathy for them. But that is all semantics and details, as you know what i meant. Moreover, my other points stand, and they are relevant to this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2005 9:45 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2005 10:24 PM CanadianSteve has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 179 of 300 (227985)
07-30-2005 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by MangyTiger
07-30-2005 9:45 PM


Re: The many versus the one
Like the analysis of the Bible and Koran, this is becoming so close to ridiculous that the line is getting hard to find. During WWII there were many organizations all over the world that allied with the Axis. This was particularly true in the Empire Countries. There were groups in the British Mandate, Egypt, India, South Africa that sided with the Axis. There were groups in Algeria that wanted freedom from France that sided with the Axis.
It had nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with politics.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2005 9:45 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2005 10:22 PM jar has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6383 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 180 of 300 (227986)
07-30-2005 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by jar
07-30-2005 9:57 PM


Re: The many versus the one
You're right on all points jar.
I just got ticked off when I saw the claim about many Islamic nations being allied with Hitler put out as a fact when I was pretty sure it wasn't true (and a quick bit of checking confirmed it). In fact I'm moderately sure that I can come up with a larger list of Islamic nations that sided with the Allies than did with the Axis.
In the context of the thread topic it isn't important - there's some much whiffier BS being spread around elsewhere - so I apologise to all for the needless digression and I'll let it drop.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by jar, posted 07-30-2005 9:57 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-30-2005 10:35 PM MangyTiger has replied

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