|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Judaism - True or False Religion? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
In the “Early Instances of Christian Elements . ” thread a statement was made in ””Message ””16 which generated an off topic discussion through Message 32.”
The claim was that Judaism is a false religion based on the talmud and not the Old ”Testament. The only verses provided to support this claim came in ””Message ””32 followed by an Admin Off Topic warning.” I would like to give that discussion a chance to blossom in this thread. I do ask that ”participants be respectful of the beliefs and religions involved and provide evidence not ”emotional responses.” My personal position is that the words supposedly spoken by Jesus in the NT do not support the idea that Judaism was or is a false religion. Comparative Religions please.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I looked at your evidence in the Book of Matthew.
Notice the very beginning of that chapter:
23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Pretty much Jesus told the multitude to do as they say, but not as they do. The woes you listed describe hypocrites who aren't even following their own teachings. From what I have read of the Talmud, Jesus is not rejecting the Talmud (oral law). You've seen ministers preach against adultry and then commit adultry. All you have shown is that Jesus felt the religous leaders were hypocrites. Why do you feel it was speaking against the Talmud?
quote:The sabbath is a biblical law and the hand washing is a rabbinic law. Jesus didn't condemn the sabbath observance or handwashing. He condemned the practice of putting those type of things ahead of human needs. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Yes it was simple. Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. Lev 23:3 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings. Deut 5:14but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. It also carries a simple death penalty.
Ex 31:14 'Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Ex 31:15'For six days work may be done , but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. Ex 35:2"For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. God had them carry out the death penalty in the OT.
Numbers 15:32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 15:33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; 15:34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 15:36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses. Some guidelines, besides the wood gathering, of what not to do are given in the OT.
Jer 17:22 "You shall not bring a load out of your houses on the sabbath day nor do any work, but keep the sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers. Jer 17:24"But it will come about, if you listen attentively to Me," declares the LORD, "to bring no load in through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but to keep the sabbath day holy by doing no work on it, Since it holds a death penalty, I can understand why people want to know exactly what they can and can't do. Using only the OT what were the people allowed to do and not do on the Sabbath? What were they supposed to do on the sabbath? Now you listed a lot of items that are considered extreme rules concerning the Sabbath. What penalties were enforced when these "extreme" rules were broken? I think you'll find a difference between acts that bring a death penalty and acts that were forgiven with a sin-offering. If I remember correctly, sin offerings were more beneficial to the temple priests or some religious leaders. I think you'll find this a trend in many areas of religion. That doesn't falsify the belief or the origin of the religion, IMO. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
You didn't answer my questions from Message 35
Using only the OT what were the people allowed to do and not do on the Sabbath? What were they supposed to do on the sabbath? Now you listed a lot of items that are considered extreme rules concerning the Sabbath. What penalties were enforced when these "extreme" rules were broken? quote:These aren't additions to the Torah. Just like Christian commentaries and church rules are not additions to the New Testament. All you have shown is that Jesus had a problem with hypocrites not the Jewish religion or what the Rabbis taught. As I showed earlier, Jesus told the people to do what the religious leaders told them to do. He did not negate what they taught. He was upset that they didn't practice what they preached. When Jesus is speaking woes to Pharisees, I doubt if every single Pharisee was at the gathering, so he was only talking with those who were present. IOW I don't feel he was describing every single rabbi or Jew. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:What do you think it means to fulfill a law? If I fulfill the speed limit on the highway, it only means I am following it. The speed limit is still there tomorrow. So Jesus followed all the laws (except those specifically for women). That doesn't mean they don't apply to anyone else. Nothing Jesus supposedly said appears to negate the moral or ceremonial laws of the OT. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Unfortunately there's not much more I can say that you actually want to hear, but fortunately you haven't shown Judaism to be a false religion or that Jesus considered it such or that he condemed the entire oral law.
There is a lot more to Judaism that you quite obviously don't undertand and don't seem to care to, which is a shame. I don't feel that Jesus was ever described as disrepectful to other religions. I don't feel that those who supposedly follow his path should either. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No that was your support for stating that Judaism is a false religion, but that is not the focal subject of this thread. From the OP: The claim was that Judaism is a false religion based on the talmud and not the Old ”Testament. You have not shown that Judaism is a false religion, it is different than yours and you may not agree with it, but not false and you haven't shown that Jesus' comments to the Pharisees reflected on Judaism itself without a lot of dogmatic gymnastics.
I don't feel that Jesus was ever described as disrepectful to other religions. I don't feel that those who supposedly follow his path should either. quote:And you would be putting yourself in disagreement with Him then, according to my reading of His teachings. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:And that is what we are trying to bring out concerning this claim about Judaism. Simply googling a talmud subject or looking up something for the first time concerning Judaism isn't going to give you the understanding that Jesus had or current Jews have concerning their own religion. Do you feel that Jesus was condeming Judaism as false or just certain religious leaders as hypocrites? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The actions of a few or the entire rabbinic practice that developed after the last exile? He told the people to do as they say but not as they do. That doesn't sound like they were doing everything wrong. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024