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Author Topic:   Playing God with Neanderthals
Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 43 of 144 (548064)
02-25-2010 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Nuggin
02-24-2010 10:14 AM


I saw a TV show in the Uk some time ago where they made someone up as a Neaderthal and had him walk around London.
No-one batted an eye ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Nuggin, posted 02-24-2010 10:14 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 46 of 144 (548069)
02-25-2010 11:02 AM


Morality though....
I thought the question was on the morality of doing this whole 'create a Neaderthal from a reconstructed DNA sequence'
Would there be such a fuss if we were talking about Dodos (as someone else mentioned)?

Replies to this message:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 89 of 144 (597677)
12-23-2010 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Straggler
03-08-2010 2:04 PM


Londoners...
The point being made in the show was that there is already such diversity of appearance amongst Homo Sapiens, that some-one would have to be very far removed to be noticed.

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 90 of 144 (597678)
12-23-2010 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Nuggin
02-25-2010 11:12 AM


Re: Morality though....
Maybe Neaderthals include the daughters of man who the sons of god found fair ....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Nuggin, posted 02-25-2010 11:12 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 92 of 144 (602206)
01-26-2011 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Nuggin
12-23-2010 10:36 AM


Neaderthal Hotties
I actually laughed out loud with that one
Not sure who the 'sons of god' are who are mentioned in Genesis -- suggestions on a post-card to ...
Back to the question though (and I haven't been here regularly for some time):
Why is there a problem 'creating' a Neanderthal from recovered DNA?
Is it JUST because they are so like us that it would make some people uncomfortable?
If the same question would NOT arise when considering 'resurrecting', say, a mammoth then I can only presume that the discomfort factor is high in the list.
I don't think you would necessarily find out much about Neaderthal behaviour though, since the newly sprung Neaderthal would have no-one to learn Neanderthalness from.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Jon, posted 01-26-2011 8:12 PM Peter has seen this message but not replied
 Message 94 by bluescat48, posted 01-27-2011 12:57 AM Peter has replied
 Message 96 by Taq, posted 01-27-2011 12:30 PM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 100 of 144 (606358)
02-25-2011 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by bluescat48
01-27-2011 12:57 AM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
Doesn't Job 2:1 kind of hint that the sons of God are the 'angels' -- since Satan is one of them?

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 101 of 144 (606359)
02-25-2011 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Taq
01-27-2011 12:30 PM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
So it's just a matter of human arrogance then.
'If it looks like us, and might think like us we better be nice to it (unless it's actually one of us then we can abuse the hell out of it)'.
All based on assumptions of worth where the comparison is 'how much like a human is it?'

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 Message 96 by Taq, posted 01-27-2011 12:30 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Blue Jay, posted 02-25-2011 10:54 AM Peter has replied
 Message 104 by Taq, posted 03-02-2011 12:22 PM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 103 of 144 (607179)
03-02-2011 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Blue Jay
02-25-2011 10:54 AM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
If humans want to learn they need to try to side-step their own arrogance.
I think it is entirely correct to strive for behaviour other than what we see in this world today ... don't you?
Perhaps we should just sit back and say 'Well, it's just the way we're made.' and accept all the counter productive 'stuff' ...

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 105 of 144 (607185)
03-02-2011 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Taq
03-02-2011 12:22 PM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
Isn't measuring worth by comparison to one's own species 'arrogant'?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 03-02-2011 12:29 PM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 107 of 144 (607188)
03-02-2011 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Taq
03-02-2011 12:29 PM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
Some people DO have that reaction to the farming of pigs, cattle etc. for meat.
What about extending rights to animals that feel pain in different ways to us?
Isn't it arrogant to apply humanity as the norm by which all other compassion etc. is measured?
In the pursuit of knowledge shouldn't we side-step emotion?
... hmmm ... maybe that would be a little dangerous after all now that I see it written down.

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 116 of 144 (607349)
03-03-2011 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Blue Jay
03-02-2011 2:11 PM


Re: Anthropocentrism
Learm what? ... pretty much anything of any use to them. If humans sit about assuming things based upon some unacknowledged principle (e.g. arrogance) then they will miss an awful lot in an awful lot of fields of study.
Not sure what other criterion could be used to measure 'worth' (which is itself a fairly vague concept), but it seems to me that basing that on a measure of similarity is arrogant and somewhat counter-productive.

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 Message 109 by Blue Jay, posted 03-02-2011 2:11 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-03-2011 10:01 AM Peter has replied
 Message 120 by Blue Jay, posted 03-03-2011 10:03 AM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 117 of 144 (607350)
03-03-2011 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
03-03-2011 9:19 AM


Re: Hypothetical Situation
... but they aren't a great match phsyiologically ... are they?
What about trialling on people dying of whatever the thing is supposed to cure?
I'm sure a sufferer would be more than willing to give informed consent.

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 Message 115 by jar, posted 03-03-2011 9:19 AM jar has replied

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 Message 121 by jar, posted 03-03-2011 10:03 AM Peter has replied
 Message 129 by Taq, posted 03-03-2011 12:48 PM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 118 of 144 (607351)
03-03-2011 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Taq
03-02-2011 1:22 PM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
Taq writes:
Some people DO have that reaction to the farming of pigs, cattle etc. for meat.
Would they have an even stronger reaction to the farming of chimps?
Maybe ... not sure what chimps taste like though.
What about extending rights to animals that feel pain in different ways to us?
What about extending those rights to plants and bacteria? Isn't it just as arrogant to extend these rights just to animals?
Thinking that its up to us to GIVE those rights in the first place is probably the most arrogant position ... but life is life, and all of it is necessary for the survival of the planetary eco-system so should be equally revered.
... but if we move down that route we end up in a very tricky position ...

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 Message 108 by Taq, posted 03-02-2011 1:22 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Taq, posted 03-03-2011 11:19 AM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 122 of 144 (607367)
03-03-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
03-03-2011 10:03 AM


Re: Hypothetical Situation
That's a good point.

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 123 of 144 (607369)
03-03-2011 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Blue Jay
03-03-2011 10:03 AM


Re: Anthropocentrism
Bluejay writes:
Hi, Peter.
Peter writes:
Learm what? ... pretty much anything of any use to them. If humans sit about assuming things based upon some unacknowledged principle (e.g. arrogance) then they will miss an awful lot in an awful lot of fields of study.
But, what assumptions are being made in this case (the case of reluctance to clone Neanderthals)?
In the case of NOT cloning Neaderthals the assumption is that there is something deeply wrong in doing so -- hindering learning opportunities.
-----
Peter writes:
Not sure what other criterion could be used to measure 'worth' (which is itself a fairly vague concept), but it seems to me that basing that on a measure of similarity is arrogant and somewhat counter-productive.
If you don't really have an alternative criterion for measuring "worth," then how can your complaint against the only criterion either of us has been able to think of be valid?
Not having an alternative doesn't make the rejection of the stated measure invalid.
In the past people have discovered things BECAUSE they were unsatisfied with the popular explanation, but didn't have a better one ... so they went looking.
Not knowing is the first step in discovery not an excuse to stop looking.
Edited by Peter, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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