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Author Topic:   Underlying Philosophy
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 351 of 577 (564554)
06-10-2010 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by sac51495
06-10-2010 10:46 PM


Re: Epistemology without reality
First, have you ever observed the laws of logic, or an effect of the laws of logic?
They're an abstraction. What I have observed is that logic works: correct application of logic to correct premises leads to correct conclusion.
I assume God exists, and that the Bible is true. I read Genesis and see that God created Adam in his own image, and that God spoke with Adam and reasoned with Him. From this I then know that God must have given man the ability to think logically.
Except that, as I have pointed out, many people do not have that ability, or have it imperfectly. There are simple questions in logic which over 90% of people get wrong.
Nice going, God.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by sac51495, posted 06-10-2010 10:46 PM sac51495 has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 370 of 577 (565245)
06-15-2010 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by sac51495
06-14-2010 6:54 PM


Re: Unsubstantiated
Precisely.
What do you mean: "Precisely"? You imagine a materialist saying: "It's not me, it's just my brain", I point out the reason why no materialist could say that, and you answer: "Precisely"?
The question raised here is this: what/who controls the actions of the brain?
Really? Then it's the wrong question. It would make as much sense to ask that of a mental materialist as it would to ask a mental immaterialist: who controls the action of the soul? To the immaterialist, the soul is the who that controls things.
And also, does the brain have an area in it that causes it to be self-aware?
Or can the brain love somebody?
Apparently.
I do realize that you are not a materialist ...
I'm not an philosophical materialist, but I am a mental materialist. After all, an injury to my brain would injure my mental faculties, whether it be my short-term memory, my sense of morality, or my ability to recognize fruit (depending on which part of the brain was injured). If I have an immaterial soul, what's it doing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by sac51495, posted 06-14-2010 6:54 PM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by sac51495, posted 06-18-2010 11:16 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 371 of 577 (565249)
06-15-2010 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by sac51495
06-14-2010 11:24 AM


God most certainly does provide an explanation for the reliability of memory, and a very simple one at that: He created us that way.
But our memory is not reliable. Can we therefore conclude that there is no God?
You just assume that your memory is reliable, but never given a reason why.
You are wrong.
In message #338 I wrote:
We both know (do we not?) that people hallucinate (as a result of psychosis, drugs, or simple fatigue); that people can suffer from unshakable delusions (paranoia, the idee fixe, de Clrambault's syndrome, Cotard's delusion, Capgras' delusion); that perfectly normal people have innumerable cognitive biases, failures of logic, and are prone to dozens of types of optical illusions; that our memories are faulty and suggestible; and that we can be just plain ignorant of relevant facts which would change our opinions radically if only we were aware of them.
See? I assume no such thing.
But I have given a reason why our memories are reliable, and you have not.
I also haven't given a reason why pigs have wings. But that is not a failing of my philosophy, because they don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by sac51495, posted 06-14-2010 11:24 AM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by sac51495, posted 06-18-2010 11:26 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 373 of 577 (565251)
06-15-2010 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by MatterWave
06-15-2010 5:18 PM


Re: Unsubstantiated
Gotta love the infinite knowledge base of atheists. They have figured out everything.
It's funny how no atheist ever claims that. Perhaps you also believe them to be infinitely modest?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by MatterWave, posted 06-15-2010 5:18 PM MatterWave has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by MatterWave, posted 06-15-2010 5:24 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 375 of 577 (565262)
06-15-2010 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by sac51495
06-14-2010 6:33 PM


Re: I
So how in a universe caused by an explosion (the big bang), would you come up with an orderly universe in which there are certain laws of logic that apply to nature, and in which you have the ability to rely on your memory to determine what you should do in the present, and in which we can observe things around us and make correct conclusions, and in which we have the ability to make correct conclusions at all (what if we all thought that since the solar nebula are blue and red, Thor is going to cause a thunderstorm today...?), and in which we can enjoy ourselves, and in which we can somehow sense beauty, and countless other things. How could all these things come about as the result of an explosion?
One last question I should ask: why do humans have an aesthetic sense, and animals don't, and how did our aesthetic sense come about as a result of an explosion?
Apart from the fact that the Big Bang was not an explosion, you are equivocating on the word "cause". You might as well ask how a painting of sunflowers was caused by Vincent Van Gogh's father ejaculating.
P.S: On what grounds do you claim that animals have no aesthetic sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by sac51495, posted 06-14-2010 6:33 PM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by sac51495, posted 06-18-2010 11:37 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 376 of 577 (565263)
06-15-2010 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by MatterWave
06-15-2010 5:24 PM


Re: Unsubstantiated
"We don't know" once a year wouldn't hurt anyone, and i presume wouldn't ruin the atheist philosophy.
Quite so. I say "I don't know" much more often than once a year; I am an atheist; and my philosophy remains intact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by MatterWave, posted 06-15-2010 5:24 PM MatterWave has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 383 of 577 (565280)
06-15-2010 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by MatterWave
06-15-2010 6:48 PM


Re: Unknown underlying philosophy.
You don't believe in god, that's your philosophy.
Is not believing in the Tooth Fairy also a philosophy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by MatterWave, posted 06-15-2010 6:48 PM MatterWave has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by MatterWave, posted 06-16-2010 2:07 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 384 of 577 (565281)
06-15-2010 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by MatterWave
06-15-2010 6:46 PM


Re: Unknown underlying philosophy.
Ask yourself - "Why am i an atheist?". The answer is your atheist philosophy.
No, that doesn't make a philosophy any more than the answer to the question "Why don't I believe in the tooth fairy?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by MatterWave, posted 06-15-2010 6:46 PM MatterWave has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 399 of 577 (565453)
06-16-2010 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by MatterWave
06-16-2010 2:07 AM


Re: Unknown underlying philosophy.
If i said "the Tooth Fairy" exists(e.g. in some other dimension or reality or when i die), that'd be my philosophy.
Seriously, you'd call that a "philosophy"?
Well, by convention on this forum we communicate in the English language. And the assertion of the existence of a single entity, whether it's the Tooth Fairy or the Eiffel Tower, is not a "philosophy" in the English language as it is spoken.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by MatterWave, posted 06-16-2010 2:07 AM MatterWave has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by MatterWave, posted 06-17-2010 1:38 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 400 of 577 (565454)
06-16-2010 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by MatterWave
06-16-2010 1:29 PM


Re: Unknown underlying philosophy.
If you are not confused about existence and the reality you are in, this means that you are UTTERLY confused and misguided. I question the depth of your reasoning abilities and the naivety that atheists demonstrate on this forum.
If you are really unable to answer Straggler's question, then this is a fact that you could have communicated more concisely by writing: "I am unable to answer your question".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by MatterWave, posted 06-16-2010 1:29 PM MatterWave has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 401 of 577 (565456)
06-16-2010 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by sac51495
06-16-2010 9:24 AM


Re: Philosophy clarification
Given this, we know that any atheist on this forum who has rationally investigated the subject of God has formed a "philosophy" with regards to that subject.
[...]
With regards to fairies, if one says "I don't believe in tooth fairies", then they might, or they might not, have any reasons for their disbelief in fairies, meaning they might, or they might not, have a philosophy with regards to fairies.
That's a curious way to use the word "philosophy". Apparently according to your usage I have a philosophy with regards to walruses, a philosophy with regards to unicorns, a philosophy with regards to teacups, a philosophy with regards to tomato ketchup ...
... and so, of course, do you. Tell me, what is your philosophy with regards to tomato ketchup?
As a Christian, my method of apologetic is to show you that if you do not have God as the foundation of your philosophy, you have no reason for doing anything that you do.
And you are of course wrong: I do have reasons for doing the things that I do. For example, right now I'm going to eat some cheese and pickled onions. The reason is because I'm hungry and I like the taste. See, an atheist doing something for a reason!
So this is as easily refuted as your claim that atheists can't use logic.
I have a single response to all these questions - because Jehovah God exists as the Creator of this universe, which he created in a logical, orderly way because he is a logical and orderly God.
I guess it's logical in the sense that it is not mutually self-contradictory (which hardly requires a God) but what do you mean by "orderly"?
Why do I believe this? Because of the impossibility of the opposite!
Yeah, you keep saying that. I presume that if you had anything that you thought was a good argument for it you'd have mentioned it by now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by sac51495, posted 06-16-2010 9:24 AM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by sac51495, posted 06-30-2010 2:47 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 402 of 577 (565457)
06-16-2010 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by sac51495
06-16-2010 5:32 PM


Re: Philosophy clarification
Or first, go back and read my arguments, which say God must be the foundation of our thought because of the impossibility of the opposite ...
That's not an argument, that's an assertion.
"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes." (Proverbs 26: 4-5)
Have you ever noticed that those two proverbs tell you to do two mutually incompatible things?
Curiously, the principle of parsimony is in accordance with the rule of Occam's razor, which was formulated by a friar...and you somehow think this principle is better adhered to by the atheist philosophy.
Why not? We know so much more about the nature of reality today than he knew in the fourteenth century. So although he grasped the principle of looking for a parsimonious explanation, we have a much better idea than he did of what we're looking for a parsimonious explanation for.
Isaac Newton was also a renowned Christian theologian ...
You are wrong. He was not a renowned theologian, but a secret theologian. Because he was a closet Unitarian.
See here:
Isaac Newton was a heretic. But like Nicodemus, the secret disciple of Jesus, he never made a public declaration of his private faith which the orthodox would have deemed extremely radical [...] Newton and other seventeenth-century antitrinitarians involved themselves in a sustained endeavour to dismantle the history of the Trinitarian victors and replace it with an account that vindicated the legitimacy of the antitrinitarian faith [...] In addition to denial of the Holy Trinity, he also rejected the immortal soul and evil spirits. It is hard to imagine a more heretical combination than these three.
... and said himself that he placed more importance in his theological writings than in his scientific studies.
And, though for different reasons, I guess that you find his theology about as important as I do. After all, I just think he was wasting his time, whereas you presumably think he was damning his immortal soul.
Personally, I think the principle of parsimony is followed much better by Christianity than atheism. This is because all Christian morals are based on God's character, so that if someone were to actually see and understand God, they would understand perfectly the "do's and don'ts" of the Law.
But this is like saying: "I think that an account of the world that includes the existence of fairy-dust is more parsimonious because if we could ever find some fairy-dust and sprinkle ourselves with it, then we'd be able to walk through walls."
It is not parsimonious to invoke the existence of an entity which we cannot observe (God, fairy-dust) to explain an observation which has never been made (perfect understanding, being able to walk through walls).
This is the very opposite of parsimony, since if we allow ourselves to do that sort of thing, then we can "multiply entities" under no "necessity" at all (since it is not necessary to explain observations which have not been made).
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by sac51495, posted 06-16-2010 5:32 PM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by sac51495, posted 06-30-2010 3:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 407 of 577 (565520)
06-17-2010 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by MatterWave
06-17-2010 1:38 PM


Re: Unknown underlying philosophy.
That's not my philosophy, but someone else who truly believes in X,Y,Z might make it their philosophy.
No, that's just not one of the things that can be a philosophy. A belief that the Eiffel Tower exists cannot be someone's philosophy any more than it can be their pet or their favorite food.
Just like you made it your own philosophy that something the size of an atom expanded dramatically to give birth to a self-aware entity like yourself.
That is not my philosophy. That's just a crude misstatement of a fact.
The Tooth Fairy building a universe is just as unbelieveable as a fluctuation giving birth to a self-aware "I".
A priori, yes. A posterori, no.
Your dismay is the result of taking your philosophy way to seriously ...
No, my "dismay" is an imaginary thing in your head. I am not, in fact, dismayed.
... we practically know NOTHING about anything as far as reality, existence and self-awareness are concerned.
Speak for yourself.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by MatterWave, posted 06-17-2010 1:38 PM MatterWave has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by MatterWave, posted 06-17-2010 6:33 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 409 of 577 (565550)
06-17-2010 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by MatterWave
06-17-2010 6:33 PM


Re: Unknown underlying philosophy.
It's great that you know what information is, what time is, what matter is, what mind is, what space is, what self-awareness is, what free-will is. It's amazing that you seem to know what it is that actually makes the decisions in your head. I think you are God for knowing things that nobody else on this planet knows.
Just because I know some things that you don't know doesn't mean that I know things that no-one else knows. For that to follow, I would have to be the smartest person in the world and you would have to be the second smartest.
You overestimate yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by MatterWave, posted 06-17-2010 6:33 PM MatterWave has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by MatterWave, posted 06-18-2010 2:49 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 411 of 577 (565568)
06-18-2010 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by MatterWave
06-18-2010 2:49 AM


How would i end up being the second smartest person, when in fact i DID very clearly state that i don't know what these concepts really represent(i.e. i am with the 6.6 billion people that don't know)? What you just said makes as much sense as 1+2=12, and based on the attitude on this forum, atheists are supposed to be regarded as smart even outside their deluded circles.
If you were really unable to understand my post, then I can only suggest that you read it again. It was very simple, and rather shorter than your expression of incomprehension.
If you remain unable to understand it, I suggest that you take up some less intellectually demanding hobby than participating on these forums.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by MatterWave, posted 06-18-2010 2:49 AM MatterWave has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by MatterWave, posted 06-18-2010 12:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied

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