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Author Topic:   Where are all the gods?
Phat
Member
Posts: 14155
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 57 of 122 (568704)
07-14-2010 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
07-05-2010 7:57 PM


OP writes:

Where are all the gods?

Ringo writes:


Cleveland.

The only god that Cleveland ever had left for Miami.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 07-05-2010 7:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 07-14-2010 1:48 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14155
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 73 of 122 (569692)
07-23-2010 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
07-14-2010 1:48 PM


Cleveland
I was referring to Basketball icon Lebron James.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 07-14-2010 1:48 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-25-2010 7:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14155
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 100 of 122 (873447)
03-15-2020 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by dwise1
06-28-2010 11:04 PM


tangle,from another thread writes:

The fantasy option is that there's some skydaddy going to help out with stuff here.

(Especially as if there is a skydaddy, he put the bloody disease here to start with).

The whole premise of Jesus Christ is that there *is* a "skydaddy" Who sent His Son to help out here. How He helps is a seperate discussion. And why on earth should God shield us from every challenge that the universe throws our way? We would become fat, undeveloped blobs of simplicity were he to do that. Yet you cling to this notion that any god worth considering must have evidence to support their existance. It may just not be that way.

Perusing this old topic...

Hyro writes:

Well, in all fairness, my idea of a God wouldn't include a petty, human emotion like vanity. This is precisely why I object to the bible's version of jealous God who wants to hog all the glory. That seems so out of place with a perfect God who is complete within itself.

God is described as jealous for several reasons.

quote:
There are many passages in the Bible that seem to say that God is jealous. God even calls himself a jealous God and says that his name is ‘Jealous’. Yet, the idea that God is jealous does not sit easily with religious believers. If God exists and is a perfect being, then why would an
almighty, holy, and perfectly good God be jealous of finite and mortal creatures?1 Also, according to monotheism, the polytheistic gods humans venerate do not really exist. But then how could God be jealous of them?

And most importantly, would it not be morally wrong for God to be jealous? After all, we usually find jealousy a repulsive character trait: it seems possessive and demanding.



2 Cor 11:2 writes:

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so
that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by dwise1, posted 06-28-2010 11:04 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 03-15-2020 5:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-15-2020 6:41 PM Phat has responded
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 03-16-2020 11:58 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14155
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 104 of 122 (873527)
03-16-2020 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
03-16-2020 11:58 AM


Gods Existence Is Crucial To My State Of Mind
ringo writes:

You cling to the notion that evidence is important in every situation that really matters. You look at the evidence before you drive through an intersection or step off a curb.

I wouldn't say that! Evidence is useful in any situation where it can be applied. I've seen the result of car wrecks. When we were teenagers, we would experiment with drugs. If someone we knew gave us a pill and told us we would "trip", we trusted them and usually had a mind-opening experience. Sometimes, however, we "saw demons" and did not know our names. There was no evidence except the word of mouth subjectivity yet we felt young and immortal. We survived.

The only reason you don't insist on evidence for God is because it doesn't matter whether God exists or not.
You claim that it does not matter whether or not God is real but I strongly disagree. I am no longer young and immortal. I respect the fact that you who are older than I would give away your spare change and never worry about keeping your house when you yourself see no evidence of a God to rescue you should you become homeless. People matter to you, but God doesn't. I am not like that. People matter to me yet cannot be counted on to take care of me. God is my only ultimate hope.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 03-16-2020 11:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 03-17-2020 8:02 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14155
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 105 of 122 (873530)
03-16-2020 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Hyroglyphx
03-15-2020 6:41 PM


Hyro writes:

And why on earth would a God who, according to the bible, only wants humans to love him create billions of creatures he seems to care little about or why he creates deadly viruses that kill out the very people he loves so damn much? Why create an infinite universe that is functionally useless if Earth and heaven were the only things of importance?

Good questions. It's like I said to Tangle though. Everyone seems to behoove the idea of god allowing harmful things to exist, but I've never seen a problem with it. Do we really expect Him to catch us every time we stumble and fall as a baby? To magically put protective pillows around our tiny knees and faces? How then would we develop the character traits to survive? Obviously we do need to get tougher. Tangle replies that its almost exactly how life would evolve if god never existed, which is true. What is interesting to me, howver, is how humans ( the ones without dogmatic beliefs) indict and challenge this God character to either to live up to *our standards* or that they don't need Him. I've never figured out how the unbelievers will call Him a bloody bastard or a tyrant as if they have some better idea of how such a Deity *should* behave! But that's an argument we will never have any conclusions on.

Hyro writes:

Jealously is almost universally perceived in a negative connotation... that it speaks of a fundamental insecurity. It seems out of touch with a "perfect being." If he doesn't need anyone or anything then why set out to create humanity at all? It's obviously a distortion of the character of God imparted by HUMANS who assumed it.

To me, God is described as jealous implied that He so loved His people that He defended the very contract between them and Him to the letter, getting mad at them for not taking it seriously and assuming that He foreknew the outcome of their rebellions.

Hyro writes:

What makes more sense? That God spoke only through Jews a few thousand years ago and then stopped speaking altogether or that the Jews in the 1st and 2nd century BCE spoke for God and as God through the lens of their Jewish experiences?

You've got me here! It makes much more sense that it was the early authors who spoke for God through their own lives and experience. In many ways, God's written relationship with humans was a reconciliation of males with the tenderness of masculinity that they never received from their busy Fathers. God was masculine yet was tender and understanding at times and tough and callous at other times...as they themselves needed to be in their warring culture.

I'll give you all that God, as described by humans, is a human construct, but it does not prevent me from believing that He exists above, beyond, and apart from our attempts to describe Him.

Hyro writes:

At what point might you entertain the notion that this is bullshit? And not to say that God per se is bullshit, but that your conception of God revealed through the bible is bullshit?

I will agree that it is BS but that it is *evolving* BS. If God exists (which I believe He does) and wants us to know Him and know ourselves in the process, He obviously won't give us any clearer directions apart from what we ourselves conclude from our own experiences.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-15-2020 6:41 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 03-16-2020 4:31 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 108 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-16-2020 5:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14155
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 110 of 122 (873694)
03-18-2020 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
03-16-2020 4:56 PM


Genesis 17 Revisited
OK, I looked at Genesis 17. Several questions for us to ponder. Lets take the first part.
Gen 17:1-27 NKJV writes:

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him,"I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

9 And God said to Abraham: "As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

15 Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her."

17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!"

19 Then God said: "No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year." 22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

23 So Abraham took Ishmael his son, all who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very same day, as God had said to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael; 27 and all the men of his house, born in the house or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him.


  • Some will look at it as a story intended to explain how the covenant and the laws came from Abraham. The apologists see it as a clear divide between Islam (Ishmael) and Judaism (Isaac).

    My questions begin with this one: Was Abraham really talking with God? Wags and pundits will ask "which god"? My beliefs are set in that there is only One God. Not everyone has the ability, desire, or conceptualization to talk to or even want to talk to such a Being. Others will claim that it is simply us and our conscience having intercession (Inner Session) .Abraham had a lot of people to be responsible for back in those days, and perhaps this conversation with "God" would be a bit like mine. I have a list of things I hope for God to help me with, yet I tend to ignore His nagging list (which He uses ringo to prick my conscience with) commanding me to go out and about helping people with no promise of any reward or payment for doing so. I think my thinking is messed up because my own father used to pay me for mowing the lawn and taking out the garbage and I somehow feel that a fatherly authority figure owes it to me to do likewise. My thoughts and prayers, as well as my actions, are evolving on these matters, however.

    I argue with God occasionally, knowing full well that I have no authority or power to change His mind.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 107 by jar, posted 03-16-2020 4:56 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 112 by jar, posted 03-18-2020 4:13 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14155
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 111 of 122 (873695)
    03-18-2020 4:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
    03-17-2020 8:02 PM


    Re: Gods Existence Is Crucial To My State Of Mind
    ringo writes:

    But after you took the pill you decided - based on the evidence - whether it was a good pill or a bad pill. You didn't just cling to it for better or worse like you do with God.

    Interesting that you use the phrase "for better or worse". That part of the process begins before you even get to the alter. You dont simply become a "believer" and then test drive the car and return it. Perhaps you did, however. How many people get married and then find that the evidence shows them better off without her? (Lots, actually)

    Marriage at its best is for life. So is the belief in God. Not to suggest that we ourselves never evolve our own feelings on religion and God Himself, but as in a good marriage, we work those issues out with our significant other rather than simply examine evidence on her record and then simply tossing her out.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 109 by ringo, posted 03-17-2020 8:02 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by ringo, posted 03-20-2020 5:53 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14155
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 113 of 122 (873702)
    03-18-2020 4:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by jar
    03-18-2020 4:13 PM


    Re: Genesis 17 Revisited
    There is only little to ponder if you believe that the God of the book and his son were simply human creations. You seem to lean a lot on your intelligence and perceptions of reality. One wonders if you were faced with a 6-month death sentence via doctors or whomever that you would relate to God as you understand Him any differently than you do now. I don't pretend to know. I just relate to Him as I always have, talking, listening and doing in response to my conscience and its communion with my belief.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by jar, posted 03-18-2020 4:13 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 114 by jar, posted 03-18-2020 5:24 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14155
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 115 of 122 (873819)
    03-19-2020 6:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 114 by jar
    03-18-2020 5:24 PM


    The Origins Of The Isaac & Ishmael Mythos
    jar writes:

    Asking if the character in a story was really talking to some other character in the story makes no sense whatsoever. And as I said, trying to claim that something that did not even exit for hundreds or thousands of years after some story was written was what the author was talking about is just plain stupid.

    The stories can tell you how the author thought his listeners and associates should react but to claim the author was writing to an audience several thousand years in the future is unsupportable.

    I don't know if I would use the word "stupid". Here is how one scholar explained the origin of this belief:

    Dr.Mark Durie writes:

    How did this all begin? According to Sir Fergus Millar, Professor Emeritus of Ancient History at Oxford University, it was Josephus, a Jewish historian writing in the first century CE, who first advanced the idea that Ishmael was the ancestor of the Arabs. In The Antiquities of the Jews Josephus stated that Ishmael was "the founder" of the Arabian nation, and Abraham was "their father". From Josephus, this assumed connection between the Arabs and Abraham, through Ishmael, passed into the historical consciousness of Christians, and then made its way into early Islam.

    The Qur'an does not speak of Ishmael or Abraham as ancestors of the Arabs – although it does have Abraham and Ishmael praying for Allah to make their descendants a Muslim people – but the link is established in the hadith literature, in traditions about Muhammad's own genealogy. In this way Abraham and Ishmael came to be considered, in Islamic tradition, not only a spiritual antecedent of Muhammad as an Islamic prophet, but also the physical ancestor of (at least some of) the Arabs.


    Ishmael is Not the Father of the Arabs

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by jar, posted 03-18-2020 5:24 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 116 by jar, posted 03-19-2020 6:24 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14155
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 117 of 122 (873830)
    03-20-2020 3:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 116 by jar
    03-19-2020 6:24 PM


    Re: The Origins Of The Isaac & Ishmael Mythos
    Think jar, think. I simply do not believe your evidence. I have seen examples of Christians who actually have transformed lives. I do not think that anyone and everyone can simply achieve this by joining a club and earning merit badges. Granted Christianity is about what one does and is charged to do, but this desire and effort are helped through joyfully serving a living God and not simply to (again) earn merit badges.

    It seems silly to believe that every Biblical Christian Apologist and Pastor, of which there are well over a million, are all fantasy deluded and/or willful con artists and shysters.

    Granted the majority of Christians have never seen what they would say is evidence for either God or satan, except subjectively. In these cases, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    And I would never trust a Bible "teacher" who explains the book as merely a history of the patriarchs and their mythos.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 116 by jar, posted 03-19-2020 6:24 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 118 by jar, posted 03-20-2020 7:35 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14155
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 120 of 122 (874178)
    03-26-2020 10:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 119 by ringo
    03-20-2020 5:53 PM


    Re: Gods Existence Is Crucial To My State Of Mind
    ringo writes:

    But you can't "work things out" with God. I've suggested that many times and you keep rejecting it. With your God it's strictly His way or the highway, no working things out, give in to His demands or else. That's no kind of marriage.

    Its because you limit Him and what He does to the character in the book. With no clear belief/communion/relationship with God apart from the book, (which you will claim is impossible anyway) of course you can't work anything out--no more than you could convince Long John Silver to change his tune.

    This is the basic gulf between our worldviews.

  • Ringo, claiming evidence as to the only standard, concludes that no God exists out of the book. jar agrees, calling Biblical Christians willfully ignorant and embracing fantasy.

  • Phat, having experienced several episodes that would confirm his longstanding belief that God is living and active outside of the book and that he discovered this revelation personally and not corporately, though the church also preaches such things.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 119 by ringo, posted 03-20-2020 5:53 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 121 by jar, posted 03-26-2020 11:42 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 122 by ringo, posted 03-26-2020 5:26 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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