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Author Topic:   Ushering In An Age of Reason....Or Not.....?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 67 of 187 (631085)
08-30-2011 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by GDR
08-29-2011 10:02 PM


The problem with "inductive reasoning"
Hi GDR, how goes the battle?
Straggler writes:
There absolutely is an objectively evidenced basis for concluding that gods are human constructions though. The objective evidence clearly demonstrates that humans have a psychological proclivity to invoke false positive agency. As demonstrated by everything from conspiracy theories to fasle gods via imaginary friends and the imbuement of human-mind-like properties to inanimate objects and aspects of nature. And the "ALL" aspect is derived from inductive reasoning.
So we have objective evidence combined with inductive reasoning leading to high cofidence but tentative conclusions. Methods of knowing that form the bedrock of all scientific conclusions. Methods of knowing that are demonstrably reliable.
The objective evidence that you keep repeating tells us nothing at all about whether or not an actual intelligent first cause exists or not. It is completely and totally irrelevant. Sorry.
It's worse than that. Straggler's much hyped "inductive reasoning" is really nothing but his own intuitive thinking (guessing), and his much ballyhooed "objectively evidenced basis" is nothing more than confirmation bias that has not yet shown that a single supernatural entity is a product of human imagination while ignoring other possibilities.
The human ability to create fictional characters does not mean that non-fictional ones don't exist. Cowboy fiction stories do not mean that all cowboys are the product of human imagination. This is just another example of the all A Is B, B, therefore A logical fallacy.
Because something is in the B category does not mean it is in the A category: because a cowboy is in the B category does not mean it is in the A (fictional cowboy) category.
This is how "inductive reasoning" gives you false results.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by GDR, posted 08-29-2011 10:02 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2011 10:33 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 132 by Otto Tellick, posted 09-05-2011 1:11 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 70 of 187 (631098)
08-30-2011 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-04-2011 12:13 PM


Re: Ushering In An Age of Reason....Or Not.....?
Typical Straqgler bias.
It seems to be the expectation (or at least hope) of the new atheists that an age of reason be ushered into existence. An age in which religious and other superstitious beliefs are sidelined into irrelevance by a near universal acceptance that rationality, reason and evidence based inquiry hold the key to human advancement and progress.
Curiously, when anyone, atheists included, employs logical fallacies, pseudoskeptic arguments and pseudoscience, they are not contributing to a trend to increase rationality, reason and evidence based inquiry.
The first step then, to promote a new age of reason, is to rid oneself of false logic and pseudoskeptical and pseudoscientific arguments.
http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/toc.htm
http://usabig.com/autonomist/fallacies.html
One should become familiar with logical fallacies so that one can recognize them when they appear.
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Pseudoskepticism
quote:
Pseudoskepticism - Definition
Pathological Skepticism is closedmindedness with deception: it is an irrational prejudice against new ideas which masquerades as proper Skepticism. A person under the sway of Pathological Skepticism will claim to support Reason and the scientific worldview while concealing their strongly negative emotional response against any questioning of contemporary accepted knowledge. The primary symptoms of Pathological Skepticism are the presence of scorn, sneering, and ridicule in place of reasoned debate. In their arguments, pseudoskeptics will freely employ logical fallacies, rhetoric, and numerous dishonest strategies of persuasion which are intended more sway an audience rather than to expose truth, i.e. than to pursue science. Because it promotes a falsely scientific facade, Pathological Skepticism is a class of pseudoscience.
Pseudoskepticism - Example Usage
  • Kaviraj2: RT @onlinerepertory: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (3) Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof - http://t.co/t1QJ7QS
  • Kaviraj2: RT @postanes: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (4) Presenting insufficient evidence or proof - http://t.co/GjiqvnW
  • Talirman: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (6) Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence - http://t.co/96WjaKH
  • postanes: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (4) Presenting insufficient evidence or proof - http://t.co/GjiqvnW
  • OpenMinded2010: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (5) Making unsubstantiated counter-claims - http://t.co/v7qJeRg

One should become familiar with pseudoskepticism (and the false types of arguments used) so that one can recognize it when it appears.
Pseudoscience - Wikipedia
quote:
Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but which does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status.[1] Pseudoscience is often characterized by the use of vague, exaggerated or unprovable claims, an over-reliance on confirmation rather than rigorous attempts at refutation, a lack of openness to evaluation by other experts, and a general absence of systematic processes to rationally develop theories. ...
... Pseudoscientific beliefs are widespread, even among public school science teachers and newspaper reporters.[5]
Equally, one should be aware of the pitfalls of pseudoscience (and the false types of arguments used) when it involves theistic and atheistic topics/arguments/positions, so that one can recognize them when they appear.
A (much) better basis, imho, is open-minded skepticism and the honesty to say "we don't know" when the evidence is not sufficiently conclusive, meaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence while remaining skeptical of views\positions that are not (or insufficiently) supported by evidence.
Neither is an "age of reason" necessarily at odds with theism.
The Age of Reason - Wikipedia
quote:
The Age of Reason; Being an Investigation of True and Fabulous Theology is a deistic pamphlet, written by eighteenth-century British radical and American revolutionary Thomas Paine, ... was a bestseller in the United States, where it caused a short-lived deistic revival. ... The Age of Reason presents common deistic arguments; ....
Paine's book followed in the tradition of early eighteenth-century British deism. These deists, while maintaining individual positions, still shared several sets of assumptions and arguments that Paine articulated in The Age of Reason. The most important position that united the early deists was their call for "free rational inquiry" into all subjects, especially religion. ... They also demanded that debate rest on reason and rationality. ... and argued that such evidence was neither sufficient nor necessary to prove the existence of God. Along these lines, deistic writings insisted that God, as the first cause or prime mover, had created and designed the universe with natural laws as part of his plan. They hold that God does not repeatedly alter his plan by suspending natural laws to (miraculously) intervene in human affairs. ....
Open-minded skepticism is neither religious nor anti-religious, it is unbiased in its evaluation of issues, topics, and positions.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : It appears that Panda thinks that logical fallacies, pseudoskeptic arguments and pseudoscience do contribute to a new age of reason if he dislikes this post. Amusingly, disliking a post doesn't make it false or invalid.
Edited by RAZD, : inglash

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2011 12:13 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2011 1:43 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 71 of 187 (631100)
08-30-2011 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Straggler
08-30-2011 10:33 AM


Re: The problem with "Straggles thought"
Your little logical constructions, as ever, fail to take into account that it is evidence rather than deductive logic that we are talking about.
LOL. Straggles has consistently failed to present any such evidence to show that his pet conjecture is anything but opinion, wishful thinking and bias.
quote:
Kaviraj2: RT @postanes: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (4) Presenting insufficient evidence or proof - http://t.co/GjiqvnW
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : disliking a post does not change the truth of what is posted, it just exposes bias in the person that dislikes those truths.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2011 10:33 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2011 11:54 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 76 of 187 (631136)
08-30-2011 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Straggler
08-30-2011 11:54 AM


Re: The problem with "Straggles thought"
Straggles still not understanding the issue/s ...
I can only repeat the things you have ignored previously. ...
Curiously, I haven't ignored them, I've shown them to be false\poor thinking, while you have ignored my responses.
... Mod's summary is the most succinct. So here it is again:
ALL of which amounts to wishful thinking, confirmation bias, personal opinion and pseudoskeptical rhetoric, not scientific investigation.
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Pseudoskepticism
quote:
Pathological Skepticism is closedmindedness with deception: it is an irrational prejudice against new ideas which masquerades as proper Skepticism. A person under the sway of Pathological Skepticism will claim to support Reason and the scientific worldview while concealing their strongly negative emotional response against any questioning of contemporary accepted knowledge. The primary symptoms of Pathological Skepticism are the presence of scorn, sneering, and ridicule in place of reasoned debate. In their arguments, pseudoskeptics will freely employ logical fallacies, rhetoric, and numerous dishonest strategies of persuasion which are intended more sway an audience rather than to expose truth, i.e. than to pursue science. Because it promotes a falsely scientific facade, Pathological Skepticism is a class of pseudoscience.
Talirman: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (6) Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence - http://t.co/96WjaKH
Do you agree that pseudoskepticism is not a good foundation for a "new age of reason"? (can you answer yes or no?)
AND, fascinatingly, after almost a year of debate this conjectural concept has STILL not identified a single supernatural entity as being a product of human imagination. Logically this means that you have no such evidence and are de facto operating based on personal opinion rather than facts that would actually substantiate your intuitive\inductive conjecture (==guess).
It amuses me no end, that after long debates with you concerning the value of subjective evidence, that you are now trying to use YOUR subjective evidence in a debate.
The fact that no evidence supporting the existence of any supernatural entity has been forthcoming ...
So how do you test for supernatural essence? Or are you just assuming that it is absent?
... is this like a Ben Franklin in a field without a means to test for the presence of electricity in lightening, deciding that electricity was not present when his kite was struck by lightening?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : Curiously, "disliking" a post does not show it is wrong. You can dislike the truth, but that won't change it.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2011 11:54 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2011 4:57 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 79 of 187 (631189)
08-30-2011 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Straggler
08-30-2011 4:57 PM


Re: The problem with "Straggles thought"
Straggles again,
The summary I provided was posted by Mod in Message 1292. That post is notable for your own lack of response. If you can show where you have tackled this evidence and feel that your rebuttal has been ignored then feel free to link to those posts and I have no doubt you will get the response you deserve.
My response can be found on the Great Debate thread that the Peanut Gallery is supposed to be discussing rather than discussing the topic, and where I have been asked not to participate.
But in all honesty I have never seen you get past the whole falsification thing.
Amusingly we haven't even begun to get to the "whole falsification thing" -- because there is not much point in trying to falsify every unsubstantiated assertion of opinion and wishful thinking that pops up, and that hasn't even been demonstrated to be an hypothesis yet. You have work to do first.
RAZD writes:
Do you agree that pseudoskepticism is not a good foundation for a "new age of reason"? (can you answer yes or no?)
The problem being that your definition of "pseudoskeptic" seems to only apply to testing the unfalsifiable things that you happen to believe in whilst not applying to those things that you don't.
Curiously, it is not MY definition but THIS definition I've quoted:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Pseudoskepticism
quote:
Pseudoskepticism - Definition
Pathological Skepticism is closedmindedness with deception: it is an irrational prejudice against new ideas which masquerades as proper Skepticism. A person under the sway of Pathological Skepticism will claim to support Reason and the scientific worldview while concealing their strongly negative emotional response against any questioning of contemporary accepted knowledge. The primary symptoms of Pathological Skepticism are the presence of scorn, sneering, and ridicule in place of reasoned debate. In their arguments, pseudoskeptics will freely employ logical fallacies, rhetoric, and numerous dishonest strategies of persuasion which are intended more sway an audience rather than to expose truth, i.e. than to pursue science. Because it promotes a falsely scientific facade, Pathological Skepticism is a class of pseudoscience.
Again: do you agree that this type of behavior is NOT one that would be an appropriate foundation for "ushering" in a new age of reason? Yes or No (if you can).
Thus you will describe the Earth as "old, very, very, old" Message 30 ...
Again, that is what the evidence and information show. The post linked details how that is shown by the evidence.
... despite never having tested Last Thursdayism
Whether Last Thursdayism is true or not is (a) not testable and (b) irrelevant compared to the much broader question of whether or not evidence truthfully represents reality, which we also cannot test.
We\science assume\s that the evidence truthfully represents reality, but we don't know that this is fact. We do not know that any scientific conclusion is fact.
If you disagree with this, do you have a way to test this broader question?
But you dismiss any evidence suggesting that the concept of god is likely to be a human inventions on the basis that your particular version of god cannot be falsified.
No, what I keep telling you is that you have not yet demonstrated this for a single god, all you have done is assert that this is so.
And I keep telling you that without such demonstration with objective empirical evidence specific to a single god that your assertion of "likely" amounts to a typical pseudoskeptic argument:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Pseudoskepticism
quote:
Pseudoskepticism - Example Usage
Talirman: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (6) Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence - http://t.co/96WjaKH
Again, this is not my definition or description, it is a description of behavior that is not, imho, appropriate for founding a "new age of reason" -- do you think it is?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2011 4:57 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 08-31-2011 10:40 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 87 of 187 (631511)
09-01-2011 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by RAZD
08-30-2011 11:01 AM


or Ushering In A New Age of Reason....?
Hi everyone
Now that AdminPhat has directed a return to the topic, perhaps we can actually discuss why these different things should or should not be used to usher in a new age of reason:
quote:
Message 70 (reply to Message 1):
It seems to be the expectation (or at least hope) of the new atheists that an age of reason be ushered into existence. An age in which religious and other superstitious beliefs are sidelined into irrelevance by a near universal acceptance that rationality, reason and evidence based inquiry hold the key to human advancement and progress.
Curiously, when anyone, atheists included, employs logical fallacies, pseudoskeptic arguments and pseudoscience, they are not contributing to a trend to increase rationality, reason and evidence based inquiry.
The first step then, to promote a new age of reason, is to rid oneself of false logic and pseudoskeptical and pseudoscientific arguments.
http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/toc.htm
Authorization
One should become familiar with logical fallacies so that one can recognize them when they appear.
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Pseudoskepticism
quote:
Pseudoskepticism - Definition
Pathological Skepticism is closedmindedness with deception: it is an irrational prejudice against new ideas which masquerades as proper Skepticism. A person under the sway of Pathological Skepticism will claim to support Reason and the scientific worldview while concealing their strongly negative emotional response against any questioning of contemporary accepted knowledge. The primary symptoms of Pathological Skepticism are the presence of scorn, sneering, and ridicule in place of reasoned debate. In their arguments, pseudoskeptics will freely employ logical fallacies, rhetoric, and numerous dishonest strategies of persuasion which are intended more sway an audience rather than to expose truth, i.e. than to pursue science. Because it promotes a falsely scientific facade, Pathological Skepticism is a class of pseudoscience.
Pseudoskepticism - Example Usage
  • Kaviraj2: RT @onlinerepertory: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (3) Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof - http://t.co/t1QJ7QS
  • Kaviraj2: RT @postanes: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (4) Presenting insufficient evidence or proof - http://t.co/GjiqvnW
  • Talirman: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (6) Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence - http://t.co/96WjaKH
  • postanes: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (4) Presenting insufficient evidence or proof - http://t.co/GjiqvnW
  • OpenMinded2010: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (5) Making unsubstantiated counter-claims - http://t.co/v7qJeRg

One should become familiar with pseudoskepticism (and the false types of arguments used) so that one can recognize it when it appears.
Pseudoscience - Wikipedia
quote:
Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but which does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status.[1] Pseudoscience is often characterized by the use of vague, exaggerated or unprovable claims, an over-reliance on confirmation rather than rigorous attempts at refutation, a lack of openness to evaluation by other experts, and a general absence of systematic processes to rationally develop theories. ...
... Pseudoscientific beliefs are widespread, even among public school science teachers and newspaper reporters.[5]
Equally, one should be aware of the pitfalls of pseudoscience (and the false types of arguments used) when it involves theistic and atheistic topics/arguments/positions, so that one can recognize them when they appear.
A (much) better basis, imho, is open-minded skepticism and the honesty to say "we don't know" when the evidence is not sufficiently conclusive, meaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence while remaining skeptical of views\positions that are not (or insufficiently) supported by evidence.
Neither is an "age of reason" necessarily at odds with theism.
The Age of Reason - Wikipedia
quote:
The Age of Reason; Being an Investigation of True and Fabulous Theology is a deistic pamphlet, written by eighteenth-century British radical and American revolutionary Thomas Paine, ... was a bestseller in the United States, where it caused a short-lived deistic revival. ... The Age of Reason presents common deistic arguments; ....
Paine's book followed in the tradition of early eighteenth-century British deism. These deists, while maintaining individual positions, still shared several sets of assumptions and arguments that Paine articulated in The Age of Reason. The most important position that united the early deists was their call for "free rational inquiry" into all subjects, especially religion. ... They also demanded that debate rest on reason and rationality. ... and argued that such evidence was neither sufficient nor necessary to prove the existence of God. Along these lines, deistic writings insisted that God, as the first cause or prime mover, had created and designed the universe with natural laws as part of his plan. They hold that God does not repeatedly alter his plan by suspending natural laws to (miraculously) intervene in human affairs. ....
Open-minded skepticism is neither religious nor anti-religious, it is unbiased in its evaluation of issues, topics, and positions.
In other words:
Is it good or bad to employ logical fallacies?
  • if you think it is good, then please provide some examples and demonstrate how this can be a good approach to ushering a new age of reason.
  • if you think it is bad, then you should like and agree with the comment "One should become familiar with logical fallacies so that one can recognize them when they appear."
Is it good or bad to employ pseudoskeptic arguments?
  • if you think it is good, then please provide some examples and demonstrate how this can be a good approach to ushering a new age of reason.
  • if you think it is bad, then you should like and agree with the comment "One should become familiar with pseudoskepticism (and the false types of arguments used) so that it can be recognize it when it appears."
Is it good or bad to employ pseudoscience?
  • if you think it is good, then please provide some examples and demonstrate how this can be a good approach to ushering a new age of reason.
  • if you think it is bad, then you should like and agree with the comment "Equally, one should be aware of the pitfalls of pseudoscience (and the false types of arguments used) when it involves theistic and atheistic topics/arguments/positions, so that one can recognize them when they appear."
and
Is it good or bad to employ openmindedness?
  • if you think it is bad, then please provide some examples and demonstrate how this can be a bad approach to ushering a new age of reason.
  • if you think it is good, then you should like and agree with the comment "A (much) better basis, imho, is open-minded ... meaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence ...."
Is it good or bad to employ skepticism?
  • if you think it is bad, then please provide some examples and demonstrate how this can be a bad approach to ushering a new age of reason.
  • if you think it is good, then you should like and agree with the comment "A (much) better basis, imho, is ... skepticism ... meaning we can be ... skeptical of views\positions that are not (or insufficiently) supported by evidence"
Is it good or bad to employ honesty?
  • if you think it is bad, then please provide some examples and demonstrate how this can be a bad approach to ushering a new age of reason.
  • if you think it is good, then you should like and agree with the comment "A (much) better basis, imho, is ... the honesty to say "we don't know" when the evidence is not sufficiently conclusive, ..."
If you dislike or disagree with any of these items, then you should provide reasons and examples to counter them.
If, on the other hand, you agree/like them and still mark this (and
Edited by RAZD, : fixed quote for logical fallacies

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2011 11:01 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Panda, posted 09-01-2011 3:38 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 108 by Straggler, posted 09-02-2011 2:06 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 88 of 187 (631513)
09-01-2011 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by AZPaul3
08-31-2011 7:41 PM


Re: Back to original focus
Hi AZPaul3
Again by comparison, the Age of Enlightenment curbed the absolute power of the church and the monarchy. It did not do away with either but greatly lessened their power to dictate policy in all spheres. Other voices, other ideas, gained a greater influence in government and in society. And this change had a significant effect on humanity around the world. Not total absolute change but enough that we today look back on those times as having an enormous affect on humanity's path into the future.
The new Age of Reason has begun. It will not in the next 150 years supplant all irrational thoughts and practices in government and society. It most certainly will not magically make all humans rational logical thinkers. But it will lessen these effects as other more rational voices are given room and rise to be heard.
Age of Enlightenment - Wikipedia
quote:
"Age of Reason" redirects here. For other uses, see Age of Reason (disambiguation).
The Age of Enlightenment (or simply the Enlightenment or Age of Reason) was an elite cultural movement of intellectuals in 18th century Europe that sought to mobilize the power of reason in order to reform society and advance knowledge. It promoted intellectual interchange and opposed intolerance and abuses in Church and state. Originating about 1650—1700, it was sparked by philosophers Baruch Spinoza (1632—1677), John Locke (1632—1704), and Pierre Bayle (1647—1706) and by mathematician Isaac Newton (1643—1727). Ruling princes often endorsed and fostered Enlightenment figures and even attempted to apply their ideas of government. The Enlightenment flourished until about 1790—1800, after which the emphasis on reason gave way to Romanticism's emphasis on emotion and a Counter-Enlightenment gained force.
We also have:
The Age of Reason - Wikipedia
quote:
The Age of Reason; Being an Investigation of True and Fabulous Theology is a deistic pamphlet, written by eighteenth-century British radical and American revolutionary Thomas Paine, ... Published in three parts in 1794, 1795, and 1807, it was a bestseller in the United States, where it caused a short-lived deistic revival.... The Age of Reason presents common deistic arguments; ....
Paine's book followed in the tradition of early eighteenth-century British deism. These deists, while maintaining individual positions, still shared several sets of assumptions and arguments that Paine articulated in The Age of Reason. The most important position that united the early deists was their call for "free rational inquiry" into all subjects, especially religion. ... They also demanded that debate rest on reason and rationality. ... and argued that such evidence was neither sufficient nor necessary to prove the existence of God. Along these lines, deistic writings insisted that God, as the first cause or prime mover, had created and designed the universe with natural laws as part of his plan. They hold that God does not repeatedly alter his plan by suspending natural laws to (miraculously) intervene in human affairs. ....
The age of reason, imho, is still under development, but it has already resulted in various social innovations, from science to politics (democracy).
The new Age of Reason has begun. It will not in the next 150 years supplant all irrational thoughts and practices in government and society. It most certainly will not magically make all humans rational logical thinkers. But it will lessen these effects as other more rational voices are given room and rise to be heard.
Frankly, I think this new Age of Reason is inevitable. If we do not kill or poison ourselves first, this now, this today, is the time future historians will look upon as another great era for the significant change in humanity's path that is being taken.
The progress is slow, and there are (inevitably?) some back-slides.
Personally I think we should push-back against anti-science fundamentalists and vocally support better education of science and philosophy (especially including logic and open-minded skepticism). And I don't think we need to necessarily be anti-theistic to do this.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2011 7:41 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2011 3:28 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 91 of 187 (631527)
09-01-2011 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by hooah212002
09-01-2011 3:28 PM


Re: Back to original focus
Hi hooah212002
Except for the fact that most of the "anti-science" crowd are openly theistic AND use that theism as the basis for their anti-science stance (at least in the US anyways). So it almost comes as defaulting to being anti-theist as well, IMO. What other reason do people have for being anti-science if not for the conflict with their belief?
Except that there are large numbers of theists that are NOT anti-science. In fact most scientists are religious.
The clergy list is an example of clergy that endorse evolution specifically.
Your equating of anti-science with theism and then claiming that all theists are therefore antiscience is false.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2011 3:28 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2011 4:51 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 93 of 187 (631538)
09-01-2011 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Panda
09-01-2011 3:38 PM


Re: or Ushering In A New Age of Reason....?
Hi Panda, thanks.
Ok - I'll address this false dichotomy first.
Oh - you are using a logical fallacy! (Are logical fallacies good or bad?)
Except that you have not shown it to be a false dichotomy ... however I get your point. We can also add a neutral position if you want, and the question then becomes
Is it good, neutral or bad to employ openmindedness?
  • if you think it is bad, then please provide some examples and demonstrate how this can be a bad approach to ushering a new age of reason.
  • if you think it is neutral, then there should be no bad effect of employing it (else it would be bad) and there should be no reason to {dislike} it even if you don't {like} it (no reason to push either button).
  • if you think it is good, then you should like and agree with the comment "A (much) better basis, imho, is open-minded ... meaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence ...."
Is that an improvement?
Does that change your answer?
Ok - my true answer is: "It depends - different situations require different amounts of open-mindedness".
But this still amount to being open-minded. The numbers 1, 10 and 1,000 are positive in different amounts but all are positive.
As an example (which someone else referred to previously):
I received an email from a stranger. They told me about the death of their wife. They needed my help.
All I have to do is send them 100.
You think that I should be "open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence", yes?
Well, I have no reason to not believe him - I do not know anything about him.
I do know about other emails from different people claiming similar things.
But to use those other emails as evidence against this new email would be closed-minded pseudo-scepticism.
To follow your structure:
Is it good or bad to employ open-mindedness?
If I think it is bad, I should not send him any money.
If I think it is good, then I should send him the 100.
I know what I would do.
What would you do, RADZ?
I would be open-minded to the possibility that it was true. That does not mean that I must send them the 100, just that I consider the possibility that it is true. Remember that the open-mindedness under discussion here is qualified by the "... meaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence ...." not that we are all-out gullible.
Well, I have no reason to not believe him - I do not know anything about him.
I do know about other emails from different people claiming similar things.
So you do have a reason not to believe him, you have grounds for suspicions and for being skeptical. Excellent. This shows that open-minded skepticism is better than open-mindedness alone (which leads to gullibility, the point of your example).
And I would also employ skepticism, as you indicated in the above:
I do know about other emails from different people claiming similar things.
But to use those other emails as evidence against this new email would be closed-minded pseudo-scepticism.
No, that would be using evidence to base your skepticism. You could then investigate further to see if this request shows up on information police have about frauds and hoaxes (collect more evidence) before making a decision on the matter.
If you claimed that it most likely was a fraud without having any such supporting evidence then that would be pseudoskepticism.
You then make up your mind, based on your world view whether or not to send the money. You may even consider it true and still not send any money.
The original message referred to open-minded skepticism in combination, using one to temper the other.
IMHO unbridled openmindedness = gullibility = bad, which is why I limited it to
meaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence ...."
Likewise unbridled skepticism = closemindedness = bad, which is why I limited it to things "not (or insufficiently) supported by evidence".
Personally, I think you need both for a balanced approach - do you agree?
But you are not allowing me to answer honestly. (Is honesty good or bad?)
Are you not answering honestly? How am I restricting you from being honest?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : clrty
Edited by RAZD, : add/clrty

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Panda, posted 09-01-2011 3:38 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Panda, posted 09-01-2011 6:14 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 94 of 187 (631539)
09-01-2011 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by hooah212002
09-01-2011 4:51 PM


Re: Back to original focus
Hi
I NEVER said ALL THEISTS were anti-science. What I said was:
Which is quite different from saying "all theists are anti-science".
What you ALSO said was:
Message 89: So it almost comes as defaulting to being anti-theist as well, IMO. What other reason do people have for being anti-science if not for the conflict with their belief?
You are basing your need for a new age of reason "defaulting to being anti-theist as well," on the anti-science crowd while ignoring the vast number of non-anti-science theists.
Do you agree that most scientists are theists?
Do you agree that the clergy list displays a pro-science stand on evolution by hundreds (thousands? I haven't checked the numbers recently) of clergy?
Do you agree that these theists are not anti-science?
Do you agree that non-anti-theists are not a problem for a new age of reason?
Do you agree that anti-science theists do not account for the majority of theists?
Do you agree that being anti-science is a problem and not theism per se?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2011 4:51 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2011 6:21 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 97 of 187 (631568)
09-01-2011 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by hooah212002
09-01-2011 6:21 PM


Re: Back to original focus
Hi again, hooah212002
Funnily enough, I don't give a rats ass about non-anti-science theists which is why I've not mentioned them.
So whether or not their existence supports or invalidates your opinion is irrelevant?
Isn't this being rather close-minded?
Do you agree that most scientists are theists?
No.
Sadly, you appear to be wrong. Opinions can be like that.
Scientists' Belief in God Varies Starkly by Discipline | Live Science
quote:
About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.
The study, along with another one released in June, would appear to debunk the oft-held notion that science is incompatible with religion.
Nearly 38 percent of natural scientists -- people in disciplines like physics, chemistry and biology -- said they do not believe in God. Only 31 percent of the social scientists do not believe.
There have been other similar studies with similar results. While the proportion of atheists or non-believers is higher than in the general population, they are still the minority.
There is also a difference in the kinds of religions, with a strong tendency against fundamentalist or radical beliefs.
Well sure. But they aren't part of the anti-science crowd, are they? ...
Curiously that is the point I am making.
Do you agree that these theists are not anti-science?
Obviously.
Thank you.
... So do they speak for all catholics? Are you saying that since high ranking individuals in the catholic church accept evolution as a valid conclusion then all catholics do so as well?
The clergy list includes other faiths as well. What they speak for is how science is dealt with inside their jurisdictions, how people are advised by them.
Do you agree that anti-science theists do not account for the majority of theists?
No.
Again, this opinion does not appear to be supported by evidence.
On the issue of evolution it appears to be split about 50:50 in the US:
Religious Differences on the Question of Evolution | Pew Research Center
quote:
the Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion & Public Life recently released a research package exploring the evolution controversy in the U.S. The Pew Forum's U.S. Religious Landscape Survey found that views on evolution differ widely across religious groups.

With the evangelical protestants (the most vocal group) in the minority.
This does not represent the views on science overall, but rather represents the worst case on a particular science.
No. What you have is a sect of people who are theists, using their theism as the reason for their stance on "anti-science". Their theism is the unifying factor. We can deduce from that that it is the theism that is the problem....
No you cannot deduce that, or ALL theists would be anti-science, which is demonstrated false by the information above.
What you can do is focus on specific sects rather than theism as a whole. For instance within the "evangelical protestants" 3 out of 4 are anti-evolution, while among "unaffiliated theists" it is only 1 out of 4.
... Or their lack of education. But I am sure a number of them have college degrees.
That is certainly a possibility. Being close-minded is another. This can result in a cult of ignorance promoted by some sects, but it doesn't mean that a member of one of these sects necessarily is anti-science.
You are correct, some do have degrees, and some degrees are from good colleges rather than diploma mills or religious institutions that misrepresent science. These theists tend to be less anti-science than the less educated sect members of these particular religions. There IS a correlation between higher education and less radical\fundamentalist religious beliefs.
So this is generally fixed by providing proper education, not by being anti-theistic per se.
abe
I think you would also find that those who are anti-science are also poorly cognizant regarding other areas of thought, like economics (treacle down theory) or practical politics (ie Tea Party folk). That, however, is my opinion.
Non Sequitur Andrews McMeel Syndication - Home
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : abe
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.
Edited by RAZD, : sect specific

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2011 6:21 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2011 7:35 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 99 of 187 (631579)
09-01-2011 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by hooah212002
09-01-2011 7:35 PM


clarity of thought
Well hooah212002, it's not a matter of what you give a hoot about as it is about clarity of thought.
Apparently, we are talking past one another since I don't give a hoot about those theists that do happen to accept science. OR scientists who believe in god. They aren't exactly a hinderance on "the age of reason", are they?
Which is why they should not be lumped into the anti-theist crowd by non-specific terminology.
It....doesn't. my opinion that their theism is the rason for their....stupidity.....is just as relavant, whether or not there are theists who accept science.
It is the anti-science group that is anti-science.
That's all well and good, RAZD. However, my point was that the anti-science crowd is also (almost entirely) theist, using their theism as the basis for their anti-science stance. Curiously, while you've done well to provide evidence that "yes, there are theists that do endorse science", you've NOT provided an anti-science group that takes that stance for any reason NOT theistic.
That's not the point. The issue is those who are in the anti-science (A) group rather than those that are included in the general theist (B) group:
If you say {theist} when you really mean {anti-science} then you are not being clear in what you are saying.
Even if you said {evangelical protestant} when you meant {anti-science} you would be wrong about the 25% that endorse evolution.
Clarity of thought and communication would be an element that I would promote as critical to a new age of reason, wouldn't you?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : grouping

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2011 7:35 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2011 8:39 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 101 of 187 (631589)
09-01-2011 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Panda
09-01-2011 6:14 PM


Re: or Ushering In A New Age of Reason....?
Hi Panda, insults, sniping comments and the like omitted:
You are adding another option?
So there was at least 1 missing option?
You made a comment, so I proposed an adaptation - is there something wrong with that?
It was therefore a false dichotomy to say there were only 2 options.
Did I say that there were only two options? I asked if these concepts were good or bad to include in the ushering in of a new age of reason.
I listed two possible options and then stated what I thought were the consequence of {good} and {bad}, that doesn't limit you to those options.
Barely. It is now a false trichotomy.
Is it? You've not made a case for it, only criticized without substantiation or without offering a better approach. Making sniping comments is not constructive.
Can you be 1/2 stupid? No.
But you can be slightly stupid or moderately stupid or very stupid.
But all are on the stupid side of thinking. You can have positive numbers and negative numbers and 0. The positive numbers are all positive.
RADZ writes:
Are you not answering honestly? How am I restricting you from being honest?
By putting forward a false dichotomy and telling me to chose one option.
And yet, curiously, here you are answering, still unconstrained in your answers.
I would be open-minded to the possibility that it was true. That does not mean that I must send them the 100, just that I consider the possibility that it is true. Remember that the open-mindedness under discussion here is qualified by the "... meaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence ...." not that we are all-out gullible.
But his email is not contradicted by any objective empirical evidence.
Why would you not send him 100?
Because he hasn't made the case (supported with empirical evidence) that his claim is true. I would need further information before I could begin to decide to send money.
But even if he could show that it was true that doesn't mean that I would send money -- I can just as easily need to spend that money on other things of more importance to me.
RADZ writes:
So you do have a reason not to believe him, you have grounds for suspicions and for being skeptical. Excellent. This shows that open-minded skepticism is better than open-mindedness alone (which leads to gullibility, the point of your example).
But there is no evidence that his email is fraudulent.
Why would you not send him 100?
Because he hasn't made the case (supported with empirical evidence) that his claim is true. I would need further information before I could begin to decide to send money.
But even if he could show that it was true that doesn't mean that I would send money -- I can just as easily need to spend that money on other things of more importance to me.
RADZ writes:
You could then investigate further to see if this request shows up on information police have about frauds and hoaxes (collect more evidence) before making a decision on the matter.
But there is no evidence that his email is fraudulent. Why are you investigating him?
Why would you not send him 100?
Because he hasn't made the case (supported with empirical evidence) that his claim is true. I would need further information before I could begin to decide to send money.
But even if he could show that it was true that doesn't mean that I would send money -- I can just as easily need to spend that money on other things of more importance to me.
Certainly, IF I were about to spend 100 on anything, I would investigate the investment to make sure it was real, as I'm not in the habit of just throwing money away based on unsubstantiated claims.
Being open-minded to the possibilities does not mean being gullible.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : ...

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Panda, posted 09-01-2011 6:14 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Panda, posted 09-01-2011 9:23 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 103 of 187 (631598)
09-01-2011 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by hooah212002
09-01-2011 8:39 PM


Re: clarity of thought
Don't have a cow, hooah212002
You are not understanding my position.
THEIR THEISM IS THE REASON FOR THEIR STANCE ON BEING ANTI-SCIENCE. ...
But 1/4th of evangelical protestants are not anti-evolutionists, as just one example from the chart provided above (there are similar people in all other beliefs listed).
Therefore their theism is not making them be anti-science.
... THUS THE REASON I SEE THE THEISM AS THE PROBLEM
There you go, blaming {general blanket} theism again, rather than the specific anti-science beliefs (such as young earth, wwf, etc beliefs).
It's like you said that my theism makes me anti-science.
It's like you said that a pro-evolution evangelical protestant's theism makes them anti-science.
Neither of these is true. Neither of these is a valid statement.
You cannot logically use as broad a brush as this and even begin to hope to start using clarity of thought.
theism per se ≠ anti-science
Why are you putting words in my mouth? Maybe larger font will help?
Yes. Perhaps you could start by not putting words in my mouth?
Perhaps you don't see what your words are saying.
Theism - Wikipedia
quote:
Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[1] In a more specific sense, theism refers to a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God and God's relationship to the universe.[2][3] Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. The use of the word theism as indicating a particular doctrine of monotheism arose in the wake of the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century to contrast with the then emerging deism that contended that God, though transcendent and supreme, did not intervene in the natural world and could be known rationally but not via revelation.[4]
The term theism derives from the Greek theos meaning "god". The term theism was first used by Ralph Cudworth (1617—88).[5] Atheism is rejection of theism in the broadest sense of theism; i.e. the rejection of belief that there is even one deity.[6] Rejection of the narrower sense of theism can take forms such as deism, pantheism, and polytheism. The claim that the existence of any deity is unknown is agnosticism, and can be compatible with theism and with atheism.[7][8][9] The positive assertion of knowledge, either of the existence of gods or the absence of gods, can also be attributed to some theists and some atheists. Put simply theism and atheism deal with belief, and agnosticism deals with (absence of) knowledge; they are not mutually exclusive as they deal with different domains.
Nothing there about anti-science beliefs.
Perhaps you could try using a different word to describe the {anti-science group}, and see if that clears up the issue.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2011 8:39 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 104 of 187 (631602)
09-01-2011 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Panda
09-01-2011 9:23 PM


Re: or Ushering In A New Age of Reason....?
Hi Panda,
RADZ writes:
Because he hasn't made the case (supported with empirical evidence) that his claim is true. I would need further information before I could begin to decide to send money.
Excellent.
I got what I needed.
Thanks!
Yes, there is insufficient evidence pro or con, and there is no great need to reach a decision:
question
                    |
        is there sufficient valid
     information available to decide
       |                        |
      yes                       no
       |                        |
   decide based               is a
   on empirical             decision
  valid evidence            necessary?
      (A)                  /         \
                         yes          no ... but ...
                         /            |             |
                      decide         why          make a
                     based on       decide       decision
                    inadequate      at this       anyway
                     evidence        time?       based on
                      =guess         =wait       =opinion
                       (B)            (C)          (D)
We don't have an (A) or (B) condition, so the logical position is (C).
RADZ writes:
You've not made a case for it, only criticized without substantiation or without offering a better approach.
And why do I need to offer a better approach?
It is your faulty logic. It is not my job to fix it.
Because THAT is pseudoskepticism:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Pseudoskepticism
quote:
Kaviraj2: RT @onlinerepertory: Characteristics of pseudoskeptics (3) Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof - http://t.co/t1QJ7QS
Because if you don't substantiate your claim then you are just giving your opinion.
and Pseudoskepticism - Wikipedia
quote:
Truzzi attributed the following characteristics to pseudoskeptics:[1]
# Tendency to discredit, rather than investigate
Psychiatrist Richard Kluft noted that pseudoskepticism can inhibit research progress:
".. today genuine skepticism of the benign sort that looks evenly in all directions and encourages the advancement of knowledge seems vanishingly rare. Instead, we find a prevalence of pseudo-skepticism consisting of harsh and invidious skepticism toward one's opponents' points of view and observations, and egregious self-congratulatory confirmatory bias toward one's own stances and findings misrepresented as the earnest and dispassionate pursuit of clinical, scholarly, and scientific truth."[7]
Because if you don't have any suggestions to improve on this, then your comments are relatively unimportant, because you are then just giving an opinion, rather than criticism that leads to the advancement of a means to usher in a new age of reason.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : dBCode

we are limited in our ability to understand
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