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Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Ushering In An Age of Reason....Or Not.....? | |||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi hooah212002
Except for the fact that most of the "anti-science" crowd are openly theistic AND use that theism as the basis for their anti-science stance (at least in the US anyways). So it almost comes as defaulting to being anti-theist as well, IMO. What other reason do people have for being anti-science if not for the conflict with their belief? Except that there are large numbers of theists that are NOT anti-science. In fact most scientists are religious. The clergy list is an example of clergy that endorse evolution specifically. Your equating of anti-science with theism and then claiming that all theists are therefore antiscience is false. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Your equating of anti-science with theism and then claiming that all theists are therefore antiscience is false. Name an anti-science group that are not theists. I NEVER said ALL THEISTS were anti-science. What I said was:
me writes: most of the "anti-science" crowd are openly theistic Which is quite different from saying "all theists are anti-science". Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given."Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Panda, thanks.
Ok - I'll address this false dichotomy first. Oh - you are using a logical fallacy! (Are logical fallacies good or bad?) Except that you have not shown it to be a false dichotomy ... however I get your point. We can also add a neutral position if you want, and the question then becomes Is it good, neutral or bad to employ openmindedness?
Is that an improvement? Does that change your answer?
Ok - my true answer is: "It depends - different situations require different amounts of open-mindedness". But this still amount to being open-minded. The numbers 1, 10 and 1,000 are positive in different amounts but all are positive.
As an example (which someone else referred to previously): I received an email from a stranger. They told me about the death of their wife. They needed my help. All I have to do is send them 100. You think that I should be "open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence", yes?Well, I have no reason to not believe him - I do not know anything about him. I do know about other emails from different people claiming similar things.But to use those other emails as evidence against this new email would be closed-minded pseudo-scepticism. To follow your structure:Is it good or bad to employ open-mindedness? If I think it is bad, I should not send him any money. If I think it is good, then I should send him the 100. I know what I would do.What would you do, RADZ? I would be open-minded to the possibility that it was true. That does not mean that I must send them the 100, just that I consider the possibility that it is true. Remember that the open-mindedness under discussion here is qualified by the "... meaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence ...." not that we are all-out gullible.
Well, I have no reason to not believe him - I do not know anything about him. I do know about other emails from different people claiming similar things. So you do have a reason not to believe him, you have grounds for suspicions and for being skeptical. Excellent. This shows that open-minded skepticism is better than open-mindedness alone (which leads to gullibility, the point of your example). And I would also employ skepticism, as you indicated in the above:
I do know about other emails from different people claiming similar things. But to use those other emails as evidence against this new email would be closed-minded pseudo-scepticism. No, that would be using evidence to base your skepticism. You could then investigate further to see if this request shows up on information police have about frauds and hoaxes (collect more evidence) before making a decision on the matter. If you claimed that it most likely was a fraud without having any such supporting evidence then that would be pseudoskepticism. You then make up your mind, based on your world view whether or not to send the money. You may even consider it true and still not send any money. The original message referred to open-minded skepticism in combination, using one to temper the other. IMHO unbridled openmindedness = gullibility = bad, which is why I limited it tomeaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence ...." Likewise unbridled skepticism = closemindedness = bad, which is why I limited it to things "not (or insufficiently) supported by evidence". Personally, I think you need both for a balanced approach - do you agree?
But you are not allowing me to answer honestly. (Is honesty good or bad?) Are you not answering honestly? How am I restricting you from being honest? Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : clrty Edited by RAZD, : add/clrtyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi
I NEVER said ALL THEISTS were anti-science. What I said was: Which is quite different from saying "all theists are anti-science". What you ALSO said was:
Message 89: So it almost comes as defaulting to being anti-theist as well, IMO. What other reason do people have for being anti-science if not for the conflict with their belief? You are basing your need for a new age of reason "defaulting to being anti-theist as well," on the anti-science crowd while ignoring the vast number of non-anti-science theists. Do you agree that most scientists are theists? Do you agree that the clergy list displays a pro-science stand on evolution by hundreds (thousands? I haven't checked the numbers recently) of clergy? Do you agree that these theists are not anti-science? Do you agree that non-anti-theists are not a problem for a new age of reason? Do you agree that anti-science theists do not account for the majority of theists? Do you agree that being anti-science is a problem and not theism per se? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
RADZ writes: You are adding another option? Except that you have not shown it to be a false dichotomy ... however I get your point. We can also add a neutral position if you want,So there was at least 1 missing option? It was therefore a false dichotomy to say there were only 2 options. (So - you are playing dumb?) RADZ writes: By putting forward a false dichotomy and telling me to chose one option. Are you not answering honestly? How am I restricting you from being honest?(Your replies are becoming more disingenuous.) RADZ writes: Barely. It is now a false trichotomy. We can also add a neutral position if you want...Is that an improvement? (What is ironic is that your whole post is based around a logical fallacy.) RADZ writes: Can you be 1/2 stupid? No. Can you be 1/2 open minded?But you can be slightly stupid or moderately stupid or very stupid. (You are being disingenuous again. Perhaps you should try pretending to be knowledgeable instead.) I would be open-minded to the possibility that it was true. That does not mean that I must send them the 100, just that I consider the possibility that it is true. Remember that the open-mindedness under discussion here is qualified by the "... meaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence ...." not that we are all-out gullible. But his email is not contradicted by any objective empirical evidence.Why would you not send him 100? RADZ writes: But there is no evidence that his email is fraudulent. So you do have a reason not to believe him, you have grounds for suspicions and for being skeptical. Excellent. This shows that open-minded skepticism is better than open-mindedness alone (which leads to gullibility, the point of your example).Why would you not send him 100? RADZ writes: But there is no evidence that his email is fraudulent. Why are you investigating him? You could then investigate further to see if this request shows up on information police have about frauds and hoaxes (collect more evidence) before making a decision on the matter.Why would you not send him 100? Edited by Panda, : No reason given. Edited by Panda, : No reason given.Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
You are basing your need for a new age of reason "defaulting to being anti-theist as well," on the anti-science crowd while ignoring the vast number of non-anti-science theists. Funnily enough, I don't give a rats ass about non-anti-science theists which is why I've not mentioned them.
Do you agree that most scientists are theists? No.
Do you agree that the clergy list displays a pro-science stand on evolution by hundreds (thousands? I haven't checked the numbers recently) of clergy? Well sure. But they aren't part of the anti-science crowd, are they? So do they speak for all catholics? Are you saying that since high ranking individuals in the catholic church accept evolution as a valid conclusion then all catholics do so as well?
Do you agree that these theists are not anti-science? Obviously.
Do you agree that anti-science theists do not account for the majority of theists? No.
Do you agree that being anti-science is a problem and not theism per se? No. What you have is a sect of people who are theists, using their theism as the reason for their stance on "anti-science". Their theism is the unifying factor. We can deduce from that that it is the theism that is the problem. Or their lack of education. But I am sure a number of them have college degrees."Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi again, hooah212002
Funnily enough, I don't give a rats ass about non-anti-science theists which is why I've not mentioned them. So whether or not their existence supports or invalidates your opinion is irrelevant? Isn't this being rather close-minded?
Do you agree that most scientists are theists? No. Sadly, you appear to be wrong. Opinions can be like that. Scientists' Belief in God Varies Starkly by Discipline | Live Science
quote: There have been other similar studies with similar results. While the proportion of atheists or non-believers is higher than in the general population, they are still the minority. There is also a difference in the kinds of religions, with a strong tendency against fundamentalist or radical beliefs.
Well sure. But they aren't part of the anti-science crowd, are they? ... Curiously that is the point I am making.
Do you agree that these theists are not anti-science? Obviously. Thank you.
... So do they speak for all catholics? Are you saying that since high ranking individuals in the catholic church accept evolution as a valid conclusion then all catholics do so as well? The clergy list includes other faiths as well. What they speak for is how science is dealt with inside their jurisdictions, how people are advised by them.
Do you agree that anti-science theists do not account for the majority of theists? No. Again, this opinion does not appear to be supported by evidence. On the issue of evolution it appears to be split about 50:50 in the US: Religious Differences on the Question of Evolution | Pew Research Center
quote: With the evangelical protestants (the most vocal group) in the minority. This does not represent the views on science overall, but rather represents the worst case on a particular science.
No. What you have is a sect of people who are theists, using their theism as the reason for their stance on "anti-science". Their theism is the unifying factor. We can deduce from that that it is the theism that is the problem.... No you cannot deduce that, or ALL theists would be anti-science, which is demonstrated false by the information above. What you can do is focus on specific sects rather than theism as a whole. For instance within the "evangelical protestants" 3 out of 4 are anti-evolution, while among "unaffiliated theists" it is only 1 out of 4.
... Or their lack of education. But I am sure a number of them have college degrees. That is certainly a possibility. Being close-minded is another. This can result in a cult of ignorance promoted by some sects, but it doesn't mean that a member of one of these sects necessarily is anti-science. You are correct, some do have degrees, and some degrees are from good colleges rather than diploma mills or religious institutions that misrepresent science. These theists tend to be less anti-science than the less educated sect members of these particular religions. There IS a correlation between higher education and less radical\fundamentalist religious beliefs. So this is generally fixed by providing proper education, not by being anti-theistic per se. abe I think you would also find that those who are anti-science are also poorly cognizant regarding other areas of thought, like economics (treacle down theory) or practical politics (ie Tea Party folk). That, however, is my opinion. Non Sequitur Andrews McMeel Syndication - Home
Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : abe Edited by RAZD, : No reason given. Edited by RAZD, : sect specificby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
That's all well and good, RAZD. However, my point was that the anti-science crowd is also (almost entirely) theist, using their theism as the basis for their anti-science stance. Curiously, while you've done well to provide evidence that "yes, there are theists that do endorse science", you've NOT provided an anti-science group that takes that stance for any reason NOT theistic.
So whether or not their existence supports or invalidates your opinion is irrelevant? It....doesn't. my opinion that their theism is the rason for their....stupidity.....is just as relavant, whether or not there are theists who accept science.
Curiously that is the point I am making. Apparently, we are talking past one another since I don't give a hoot about those theists that do happen to accept science. OR scientists who believe in god. They aren't exactly a hinderance on "the age of reason", are they?"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Well hooah212002, it's not a matter of what you give a hoot about as it is about clarity of thought.
Apparently, we are talking past one another since I don't give a hoot about those theists that do happen to accept science. OR scientists who believe in god. They aren't exactly a hinderance on "the age of reason", are they? Which is why they should not be lumped into the anti-theist crowd by non-specific terminology.
It....doesn't. my opinion that their theism is the rason for their....stupidity.....is just as relavant, whether or not there are theists who accept science. It is the anti-science group that is anti-science.
That's all well and good, RAZD. However, my point was that the anti-science crowd is also (almost entirely) theist, using their theism as the basis for their anti-science stance. Curiously, while you've done well to provide evidence that "yes, there are theists that do endorse science", you've NOT provided an anti-science group that takes that stance for any reason NOT theistic. That's not the point. The issue is those who are in the anti-science (A) group rather than those that are included in the general theist (B) group:
If you say {theist} when you really mean {anti-science} then you are not being clear in what you are saying. Even if you said {evangelical protestant} when you meant {anti-science} you would be wrong about the 25% that endorse evolution. Clarity of thought and communication would be an element that I would promote as critical to a new age of reason, wouldn't you? Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : groupingby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
If you say {theist} when you really mean {anti-science} then you are not being clear in what you are saying. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Maybe larger font will help? THEIR THEISM IS THE REASON FOR THEIR STANCE ON BEING ANTI-SCIENCE. THUS THE REASON I SEE THE THEISM AS THE PROBLEM.
Clarity of thought and communication would be an element that I would promote as critical to a new age of reason, wouldn't you? Yes. Perhaps you could start by not putting words in my mouth?"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Panda, insults, sniping comments and the like omitted:
You are adding another option? So there was at least 1 missing option? You made a comment, so I proposed an adaptation - is there something wrong with that?
It was therefore a false dichotomy to say there were only 2 options. Did I say that there were only two options? I asked if these concepts were good or bad to include in the ushering in of a new age of reason. I listed two possible options and then stated what I thought were the consequence of {good} and {bad}, that doesn't limit you to those options.
Barely. It is now a false trichotomy. Is it? You've not made a case for it, only criticized without substantiation or without offering a better approach. Making sniping comments is not constructive.
Can you be 1/2 stupid? No. But you can be slightly stupid or moderately stupid or very stupid. But all are on the stupid side of thinking. You can have positive numbers and negative numbers and 0. The positive numbers are all positive.
RADZ writes: By putting forward a false dichotomy and telling me to chose one option. Are you not answering honestly? How am I restricting you from being honest? And yet, curiously, here you are answering, still unconstrained in your answers.
I would be open-minded to the possibility that it was true. That does not mean that I must send them the 100, just that I consider the possibility that it is true. Remember that the open-mindedness under discussion here is qualified by the "... meaning we can be open to the possibilities that are not contradicted by objective empirical evidence ...." not that we are all-out gullible. But his email is not contradicted by any objective empirical evidence.Why would you not send him 100? Because he hasn't made the case (supported with empirical evidence) that his claim is true. I would need further information before I could begin to decide to send money. But even if he could show that it was true that doesn't mean that I would send money -- I can just as easily need to spend that money on other things of more importance to me.
RADZ writes: But there is no evidence that his email is fraudulent. So you do have a reason not to believe him, you have grounds for suspicions and for being skeptical. Excellent. This shows that open-minded skepticism is better than open-mindedness alone (which leads to gullibility, the point of your example).Why would you not send him 100? Because he hasn't made the case (supported with empirical evidence) that his claim is true. I would need further information before I could begin to decide to send money. But even if he could show that it was true that doesn't mean that I would send money -- I can just as easily need to spend that money on other things of more importance to me.
RADZ writes: But there is no evidence that his email is fraudulent. Why are you investigating him? You could then investigate further to see if this request shows up on information police have about frauds and hoaxes (collect more evidence) before making a decision on the matter.Why would you not send him 100? Because he hasn't made the case (supported with empirical evidence) that his claim is true. I would need further information before I could begin to decide to send money. But even if he could show that it was true that doesn't mean that I would send money -- I can just as easily need to spend that money on other things of more importance to me. Certainly, IF I were about to spend 100 on anything, I would investigate the investment to make sure it was real, as I'm not in the habit of just throwing money away based on unsubstantiated claims. Being open-minded to the possibilities does not mean being gullible. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : ...by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
RAZD writes:
Yes. The change you made did not stop it being fallacious.
You made a comment, so I proposed an adaptation - is there something wrong with that? RADZ writes:
Yup. Those were the only two options you allowed.
Did I say that there were only two options? I asked if these concepts were good or bad to include in the ushering in of a new age of reason. RADZ writes:
Ah...so your 'test' is only applicable to people who are either 100% in the {good} direction or 100% in the {bad} direction. I listed two possible options and then stated what I thought were the consequence of {good} and {bad}, that doesn't limit you to those options.Gotcha. *nods* RADZ writes:
Maybe that made sense when your were first thinking it.
But all are on the stupid side of thinking. You can have positive numbers and negative numbers and 0. The positive numbers are all positive. RADZ writes:
Yes. It is.
Is it? RADZ writes:
And why do I need to offer a better approach? You've not made a case for it, only criticized without substantiation or without offering a better approach.It is your faulty logic. It is not my job to fix it. RADZ writes:
Excellent. Because he hasn't made the case (supported with empirical evidence) that his claim is true. I would need further information before I could begin to decide to send money.I got what I needed. Thanks! Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Don't have a cow, hooah212002
You are not understanding my position.
THEIR THEISM IS THE REASON FOR THEIR STANCE ON BEING ANTI-SCIENCE. ... But 1/4th of evangelical protestants are not anti-evolutionists, as just one example from the chart provided above (there are similar people in all other beliefs listed). Therefore their theism is not making them be anti-science.
... THUS THE REASON I SEE THE THEISM AS THE PROBLEM There you go, blaming {general blanket} theism again, rather than the specific anti-science beliefs (such as young earth, wwf, etc beliefs). It's like you said that my theism makes me anti-science. It's like you said that a pro-evolution evangelical protestant's theism makes them anti-science. Neither of these is true. Neither of these is a valid statement. You cannot logically use as broad a brush as this and even begin to hope to start using clarity of thought.
theism per se ≠ anti-science Why are you putting words in my mouth? Maybe larger font will help? Yes. Perhaps you could start by not putting words in my mouth? Perhaps you don't see what your words are saying. Theism - Wikipedia
quote: Nothing there about anti-science beliefs. Perhaps you could try using a different word to describe the {anti-science group}, and see if that clears up the issue. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Panda,
RADZ writes:
Excellent. Because he hasn't made the case (supported with empirical evidence) that his claim is true. I would need further information before I could begin to decide to send money.I got what I needed. Thanks! Yes, there is insufficient evidence pro or con, and there is no great need to reach a decision:
question | is there sufficient valid information available to decide | | yes no | | decide based is a on empirical decision valid evidence necessary? (A) / \ yes no ... but ... / | | decide why make a based on decide decision inadequate at this anyway evidence time? based on =guess =wait =opinion (B) (C) (D) We don't have an (A) or (B) condition, so the logical position is (C).
RADZ writes:
And why do I need to offer a better approach? You've not made a case for it, only criticized without substantiation or without offering a better approach.It is your faulty logic. It is not my job to fix it. Because THAT is pseudoskepticism: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Pseudoskepticism
quote: Because if you don't substantiate your claim then you are just giving your opinion. and Pseudoskepticism - Wikipedia
quote: Because if you don't have any suggestions to improve on this, then your comments are relatively unimportant, because you are then just giving an opinion, rather than criticism that leads to the advancement of a means to usher in a new age of reason. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : dBCodeby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Straggler writes: Actually the golden rule predates the bible by quite some considerable time. It seems to be a something that practically all ethical traditions (religious or otherwise) have concluded as necessary for a workable moral system. It forms the basis of all the humanistic moral philosophies I have ever seen. Actually, how often do you really see it practiced by either nations or individuals? You say it is standard by all ethical traditions but what is your basis for recognizing an ethical tradition? What is the standard you base it on? We have examples of countries that essentially make a deity of the state. They don't have a great track record to put it mildly. It seems there are groups who consider pedophilia acceptable. Who are you in this Age of Reason to say that they are wrong. How about a child who is born deformed? It would seem reasonable to put him to death so that we don't use up resources that the healthy and wise could otherwise utilize. How about we just pass a law that says everyone at age 65 should be put to sleep so that they aren't an impediment to moving society ahead? They can be such a drain.
Straggler writes: As the fan of Robert Wright that I know you are you should really investigate his main area of expertise. Namely non-zero sum game theory and reciprocal altruism as the basis of human morality. His analysis argues the very opposite to your intuitively derived conclusion above. Wright’s book The Moral Animal is as good a place to start as any other. Yes I understand the non-zero sum game theory that he talks about, and yes that often can apply. However often it doesn't and likely never will. Let's for example look at the relationship between Uganda and Britain. How do you make a zero-sum relationship out of that? What can Britain do to gain any meaningful benefit from that relationship? They could probably import some food and a minimum of other goods for their benefit so that they could put something back into the Ugandan economy but it isn't going to be equal. Any western country would be better off just taking over the country militarily, keeping the useful members of as slaves and slaughtering the rest. All of the produce would then benefit them and the countries that they have a zero-sum relationship with. Wright writes in The Evolution of God" the following.
quote: Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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