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Author Topic:   Subjective Evidence of Gods
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3750 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 406 of 468 (631399)
08-31-2011 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Theodoric
08-31-2011 8:43 PM


Re: Too many competing experiences
I have no credible response for that one. Except that chicken are foul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2011 8:43 PM Theodoric has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3750 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 407 of 468 (631401)
08-31-2011 9:06 PM


DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.
Someones been reading my posts:
'..These aren't scientists. They are religious fanatics for whom evolution must be true so that they can explain to themselves why they are here, without God. (It's an accident!)
'
quote:
Liberals' View of Darwin Unable to Evolve
by Ann Coulter 08/31/2011 99
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45893
Comments Amid the hoots at Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry for saying there were "gaps" in the theory of evolution, the strongest evidence for Darwinism presented by these soi-disant rationalists was a 9-year-old boy quoted in The New York Times.
After his mother had pushed him in front of Perry on the campaign trail and made him ask if Perry believed in evolution, the trained seal beamed at his Wicked Witch of the West mother, saying, "Evolution, I think, is correct!"
That's the most extended discussion of Darwin's theory to appear in the mainstream media in a quarter-century. More people know the precepts of kabala than know the basic elements of Darwinism.
There's a reason the Darwin cult prefers catcalls to argument, even with a 9-year-old at the helm of their debate team.
Darwin's theory was that a process of random mutation, sex and death, allowing the "fittest" to survive and reproduce, and the less fit to die without reproducing, would, over the course of billions of years, produce millions of species out of inert, primordial goo.
The vast majority of mutations are deleterious to the organism, so if the mutations were really random, then for every mutation that was desirable, there ought to be a staggering number that are undesirable.
Otherwise, the mutations aren't random, they are deliberate -- and then you get into all the hocus-pocus about "intelligent design" and will probably start speaking in tongues and going to NASCAR races.
We also ought to find a colossal number of transitional organisms in the fossil record -- for example, a squirrel on its way to becoming a bat, or a bear becoming a whale. (Those are actual Darwinian claims.)
But that's not what the fossil record shows. We don't have fossils for any intermediate creatures in the process of evolving into something better. This is why the late Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard referred to the absence of transitional fossils as the "trade secret" of paleontology. (Lots of real scientific theories have "secrets.")
If you get your news from the American news media, it will come as a surprise to learn that when Darwin first published "On the Origin of Species" in 1859, his most virulent opponents were not fundamentalist Christians, but paleontologists.
Unlike high school biology teachers lying to your children about evolution, Darwin was at least aware of what the fossil record ought to show if his theory were correct. He said there should be "interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps."
But far from showing gradual change with a species slowly developing novel characteristics and eventually becoming another species, as Darwin hypothesized, the fossil record showed vast numbers of new species suddenly appearing out of nowhere, remaining largely unchanged for millions of years, and then disappearing.
Darwin's response was to say: Start looking! He blamed a fossil record that contradicted his theory on the "extreme imperfection of the geological record."
One hundred and fifty years later, that record is a lot more complete. We now have fossils for about a quarter of a million species.
But things have only gotten worse for Darwin.
Thirty years ago (before it was illegal to question Darwinism), Dr. David Raup, a geologist at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, said that despite the vast expansion of the fossil record: "The situation hasn't changed much."
To the contrary, fossil discoveries since Darwin's time have forced paleontologists to take back evidence of evolution. "Some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record," Raup said, "such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information."
The scant fossil record in Darwin's time had simply been arranged to show a Darwinian progression, but as more fossils were discovered, the true sequence turned out not to be Darwinian at all.
And yet, more than a century later, Darwin's groupies haven't evolved a better argument for the lack of fossil evidence.
To explain away the explosion of plants and animals during the Cambrian Period more than 500 million years ago, Darwiniacs asserted -- without evidence -- that there must have been soft-bodied creatures evolving like mad before then, but left no fossil record because of their squishy little microscopic bodies.
Then in 1984, "the dog ate our fossils" excuse collapsed, too. In a discovery The New York Times called "among the most spectacular in this century," Chinese paleontologists discovered fossils just preceding the Cambrian era.
Despite being soft-bodied microscopic creatures -- precisely the sort of animal the evolution cult claimed wouldn't fossilize and therefore deprived them of crucial evidence -- it turned out fossilization was not merely possible in the pre-Cambrian era, but positively ideal.
And yet the only thing paleontologists found there were a few worms. For 3 billion years, nothing but bacteria and worms, and then suddenly nearly all the phyla of animal life appeared within a narrow band of five million to 10 million years.
Even the eye simply materializes, fully formed, in the pre-Cambrian fossil record.
Jan Bergstrom, a paleontologist who examined the Chinese fossils, said the Cambrian Period was not "evolution," it was "a revolution."
So the Darwiniacs pretended they missed the newspaper that day.
Intelligent design scientists look at the evidence and develop their theories; Darwinists start with a theory and then rearrange the evidence.
These aren't scientists. They are religious fanatics for whom evolution must be true so that they can explain to themselves why they are here, without God. (It's an accident!)
Any evidence contradicting the primitive religion of Darwinism -- including, for example, the entire fossil record -- they explain away with non-scientific excuses like "the dog ate our fossils."

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2011 9:24 PM IamJoseph has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 408 of 468 (631408)
08-31-2011 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by IamJoseph
08-31-2011 9:06 PM


Re: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.
Even given that Coulter's job description is basically "shameless liar", she could have done better than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by IamJoseph, posted 08-31-2011 9:06 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by IamJoseph, posted 08-31-2011 11:03 PM Dr Adequate has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3750 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 409 of 468 (631416)
08-31-2011 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by Dr Adequate
08-31-2011 9:24 PM


Re: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.
Shameless liars do not include names and references as their evidence. Shameless liars forget to include pivotal verses and other shameless onlookers do not point out their errors. Shameless liars also charge any directly related evidence as off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2011 9:24 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2011 11:10 PM IamJoseph has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 410 of 468 (631418)
08-31-2011 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by IamJoseph
08-31-2011 11:03 PM


Re: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.
Shameless liars do not include names and references as their evidence. Shameless liars forget to include pivotal verses and other shameless onlookers do not point out their errors. Shameless liars also charge any directly related evidence as off topic.
Sadly, that may be the best defense of Ann Coulter ever written. What it lacks in content and coherence it makes up for in brevity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by IamJoseph, posted 08-31-2011 11:03 PM IamJoseph has not replied

Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 411 of 468 (631427)
09-01-2011 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Huntard
08-26-2011 8:50 AM


Subjective evidence apperantly not so subjective to some
Chuck writes:
Wonderful. You can start by picking up a Bible (some subjective evidence for god(s) and test it out.
Also there are many books written by wonderful christians that know this truth. Pick a few up. Prayer is good too. Some books will help you pray in a way that is like you were talking to your parents. It's easy. Church too, that's a good place for subjective evidence. Lot's of people to validate this truth.
You have your hands full for the weekend. SONday find a good morning service and let me know what the Pastor talked about.
Huntard writes:
Muslim down the street writes:
Wonderful. You can start by picking up a Qu'ran (some subjective evidence for god(s) and test it out.
Also there are many books written by wonderful Muslims that know this truth. Pick a few up. Prayer is good too. Some books will help you pray in a way that is like you were talking to your parents. It's easy. Mosque too, that's a good place for subjective evidence. Lot's of people to validate this truth.
You have your hands full for the weekend. SOMEday find a good morning service and let me know what the Imam talked about.
Huntard writes:
Now, which one to choose, and why?
Well, why not just ask these folk:
Islam, SVM News, 1 January, 2007: Millions of Muslim converts to Christianity celebrated Christmas throughout the world. According the reports of the various missionary organizations and news medias.
The Salem Voice Ministries evangelizing Muslims in India and many other Muslim nations. There are about 500 evangelists ministering among Muslims in different African, Middle East and Asian countries. A vast number of Muslims finding the truth and attaining Salvation of Jesus Christ day by day.
'More Muslims converted to faith in Jesus Christ over the past decade than at any other time in human history. A spiritual revolution is underway throughout North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia. As a result, a record number of ex-Muslims are celebrating Christmas this year, despite intense persecution, assassinations, and widespread church bombings'.
Islam Watch - "Millions of Muslims Converting to Christianity" by Salem Voice
Now, your project is to provide the same, only in reverse. For example, Christians converting to Islam.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.
Edited by Chuck77, : Fixed quotes for clarification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Huntard, posted 08-26-2011 8:50 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Huntard, posted 09-01-2011 2:24 AM Chuck77 has replied

Just being real
Member (Idle past 4017 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 412 of 468 (631430)
09-01-2011 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Dr Adequate
08-31-2011 5:48 PM


RE- I've looked at his previous posts, and it turns out that I have proved him wrong before. I don't see that I did so in a "colorful" way, but I guess I'm just a colorful guy.
Perhaps I owe you this much. It's actually been a year ago or more. I had another screen name at the time. You said some very unkind and degrading things to me and the sysop at the time allowed it to continue. My faith teaches me that with all that is in me, to dwell at peace with those I interact with. I have no ill will or hard feelings towards you. However to "dwell at peace" with you requires that I no longer interact with you. I wish you only the best and pray you have a long and healthy life. As for your PhD. I wasn't aware you held that title. Therefore out of respect for the title, I will resume use of doctor in referring to you.
regards
Brad

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2011 5:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-01-2011 12:44 AM Just being real has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 413 of 468 (631431)
09-01-2011 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Just being real
09-01-2011 12:28 AM


I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. As I don't know what username you were posting under, I shall console myself with the possibility that you were asking for it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Just being real, posted 09-01-2011 12:28 AM Just being real has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2377 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 414 of 468 (631434)
09-01-2011 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by Chuck77
09-01-2011 12:14 AM


Re: Subjective evidence apperantly not so subjective to some
Chuck77 writes:
Now, your project is to provide the same, only in reverse. For example, Christians converting to Islam.
Well, I've got this:
quote:
CAIR chairman Nihad Awad told the Saudi paper 'Ukaz that "34,000 Americans have converted to Islam following the events of September 11, and this is the highest rate reached in the U.S. since Islam arrived there."
Converting to Islam in the U.S. Following 9/11 , 34000 embraced Islam !, why they converted to Islam
For starters. I'm sure I could dig up more. Again, who to believe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Chuck77, posted 09-01-2011 12:14 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by Chuck77, posted 09-01-2011 3:51 AM Huntard has not replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4503 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 415 of 468 (631443)
09-01-2011 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 389 by IamJoseph
08-31-2011 6:40 PM


Re: Prime Cause
IamJoseph,
Do you even think about what you type?
I suspect they do so because they are fed up with the dominating theologies, which they never confront directly, instead smashing the only one which is scientific.
Who is not confronting religion directly. This forum is designed to do just that. The Evolutionist side confronts the creationist side directly and the creationist side confronts the evolutionist side directly.
I have found the objections and charges made of the Hebrew bible totally fake in a blatant, shameless way. Its become like a psychosis: of billions of evidential stats not seen anywhere else they will pick a grain of sand which they say is not a real grain of sand, and also disregard every fake grain in two other religions. One is a bad career move the other is a good one with a 5 minute glory period. Go ahead - deny it.
Deny what exactly. What in this inane rant are you accusing everyone of doing?
As for this...
The Hebrew Bible "billions of evidential stats not seen anywhere else"
Do you know how many a billion is?
Its this many : 1,000,000,000
Thats a lot.
you know how many words there are in the Hebrew Bible?
its this many : 773, 682
From your statement, there are 999,226,318 more 'evidential stats' than there are words in the Hebrew Bible.
And they are statistics not found in any other source.
Come on IamJoseph, even you must see how fucking stupid that suggestion is.
Please tell me you can see that.
A child would be able to see that.

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by IamJoseph, posted 08-31-2011 6:40 PM IamJoseph has not replied

Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 416 of 468 (631448)
09-01-2011 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Huntard
09-01-2011 2:24 AM


Being dishonest
Chuck writes:
Now, your project is to provide the same, only in reverse. For example, Christians converting to Islam.
Huntard quotes writes:
CAIR chairman Nihad Awad told the Saudi paper 'Ukaz that "34,000 Americans have converted to Islam following the events of September 11, and this is the highest rate reached in the U.S. since Islam arrived there."
Sorry, that is NOT what we are talking about here, come on dude, if you're going to debate this atleast try and play by the rules?
I didn't say Americans and you know it. I said CHRISTIANS who converted to Islam. Jesus professing Christians who have converted to Islam.
What you provided is not even close to what we are talking about and i'll go ahead and assume you concede to my point. Nice try tho.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Huntard, posted 09-01-2011 2:24 AM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2011 11:13 AM Chuck77 has replied

Just being real
Member (Idle past 4017 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 417 of 468 (631450)
09-01-2011 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Coragyps
08-31-2011 7:48 PM


Brad: Now if they knew they had concocted the resurrection story, why on earth would they endure such suffering to the point of death?
Coragyp: Indeed. That's up there with nineteen men hijacking four airplanes and flying them into buildings (and the ground) and their own firey deaths. There is no way they would have done that if Mohammed had made up any of the Quran.
It's interesting that when you re-quoted what I said you only quoted the bold portion and omitted the portion that actually gave it context. I have driven the point home already that there is a big difference between a person dying for what they first hand witnessed, and your regular "run of the mill martyr" dying because they think it wins them brownie points with Allah. The fact that you have chosen to not only ignore this point, but to even go so far as to disingenuously misquote me, has told me all I need to know about trying to continue to have a reasonable conversation with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Coragyps, posted 08-31-2011 7:48 PM Coragyps has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 418 of 468 (631486)
09-01-2011 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by Butterflytyrant
08-31-2011 2:15 AM


Re: Detecting Intelligent Agency Where There Is None
Do you get it?
Probably not.
But that is your problem, not mine. I can only explain things to you as best i can. If you choose to ignore the simple explanation, what point is there in continuing to show different examples of how you are incorrect.
It is an interesting conversation simply because, if for nothing else it demonstrates that you believe you cannot be wrong in any circumstance
If the reciever does not get the response, for any reason, it does not mean that the response is not given. I will give you a really simple example. I just went outside and screamed 'Dawn Bertot does not get it' as loud as possible. I was willing to give that response. I was able to give that response. You did not receive that response. This means that communication failed. The response was given.I was not unable to respond
Butterfly, the key words that relate to reality are unable and unwilling, not communication and the others you provided. Each term has to relate the situation at hand. I noticed you agreed that the words have a meaning to both parties and they must relate to the scenerio at hand
Here is another example. Lets say I go out and make a scientifiky attempt to reach other life forms in the universe. I COMMUNICATE but no one recieves the message. In this instance it does not matter whether they recieve my communication or I responded, or are I am unable from thier perspective, I am UNABLE to accomplish my task, irregardless of communication, response or anyother term you wish to throw at it
Hence it does not matter if I am able and willing as you indicate in your examples, I am UNABLE to accomplish my task. That is how the Star Trek example applies in that situation
Hence your distinction concerning words makes no difference. The task is the goal, I and they are UNABLE to accomplish our task. Now do you get it
I was willing and able to respond
But UNABLE to accomplish your task. That is how and where the distinction must be made. The other ship was unable to accomplish thier task of communication even thought they responded and the enterprise was unable to recieve it, hence everyone was unable to accomplish thier task
Communication is different from response. Communication does require and interaction between two (or more). A response can be undetected by the target. That is the key difference you are missing.
These two words are irrelevant when the the over all purpose or task is taken into cosideration, as I have now demonstrated both by argument and example. I dont care if I communicate, I dont care if I respond to aliens, If they dont here me I am UNABLE TO ACCOMPLISH MY TASK. This is the context of Mr Spocks statement. The other ship is unable to accomplish reaching the enterprise
Think of the overall purpose and task at hand when using the terms, UNABLE and UNWIILING, not what happens inside that context. The terms have to inculcate the whole of the scenario
This is an example of communication. Which is different from a response.
It is irrelevant when the overall purpose or goal is taken into consideration, as you now see, by what I have indicated and demonstrated
Is the light bulb coming on yet?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-31-2011 2:15 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-01-2011 9:31 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 419 of 468 (631499)
09-01-2011 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by Chuck77
09-01-2011 3:51 AM


Re: Being dishonest
Chuck writes:
I said CHRISTIANS who converted to Islam. Jesus professing Christians who have converted to Islam.
Have you tried just doing the obvious thing of typing something like 'christian convert Islam' into Google?
I did this and got the following sort of thing: Islamic Converts
Link writes:
Below a collection of converts' stories which are enlightening, heart-warming and inspiring in equal measure. These new Muslims come from a variety of backgrounds. They include intellectuals, scientists, priests, Rabbis, missionaries, and artists, young and old, famous and laypersons, from around the globe. Most of these converts are former Christians or from a Christian background. These testimonies only represent a drop in the ocean however, since every day hundreds of people convert to Islam all around the world. Amongst the most powerful and thought-provoking testimonies are those of former Christian priests and missionaries who have discovered the one true religion. This is a tremendous challenge to Christian missionaries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Chuck77, posted 09-01-2011 3:51 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-01-2011 6:54 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 425 by Chuck77, posted 09-02-2011 4:26 AM Straggler has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 420 of 468 (631559)
09-01-2011 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Straggler
09-01-2011 11:13 AM


Re: Being dishonest
Straggler writes
I did this and got the following sort of thing: Islamic Converts
Link writes:
Below a collection of converts' stories which are enlightening, heart-warming and inspiring in equal measure. These new Muslims come from a variety of backgrounds. They include intellectuals, scientists, priests, Rabbis, missionaries, and artists, young and old, famous and laypersons, from around the globe. Most of these converts are former Christians or from a Christian background. These testimonies only represent a drop in the ocean however, since every day hundreds of people convert to Islam all around the world. Amongst the most powerful and thought-provoking testimonies are those of former Christian priests and missionaries who have discovered the one true religion. This is a tremendous challenge to Christian missionaries.
Really Straggler, lets see this list, with the confessionals on the ocean of people that have converted. Perhaps like many things this is greatly exaggerated. Would you happen to have the visual evidence that supports this claim
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2011 11:13 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Panda, posted 09-01-2011 7:06 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 422 by AZPaul3, posted 09-01-2011 8:21 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 443 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2011 2:21 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

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