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Author Topic:   Top Ten Signs You're a Foolish Atheist
Phat
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Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 14 of 365 (651061)
02-04-2012 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2012 8:54 AM


Pardon me, myth, your slip is showing
My question is...what does a "typical" atheist believe in? (as far as where everything came from)
It may well be true that belief in God or gods is silly, ignorant, or foolish...but what do we have left? Certainly not chance.
RC Sproul writes:
We have a tendency in our day to think of mythology as a literary enterprise of primitive, ignorant, prescientific cultures. This tendency errs in two directions. On the one hand it is the nadir of arrogance for us to assume that ancient civilizations were primitive, ignorant, or prescientific. The Egyptians, Chinese, Babylonians, Romans, and Greeks, for example, were anything but primitive or ignorant. They all achieved extraordinary levels of scientific advancement. Yes, they had mythology; but they had their serious science as well.
The second error is to relegate mythology to the past, making it an addiction practiced only by premodern cultures. On the contrary, mythical approaches to life and learning persist in every culture. Mythology continues to intrude in the arena of religion. It is commonplace in the superstitions that abound among athletes in professional sports. It is found in a host of medicinal home remedies that are often classified under the rubric of old wives’ tales.
Mythology also intrudes into the realm of science. Uncritically accepted hypotheses and theories of the past die a slow and reluctant death. We have seen the resistance the church has displayed against new advances in scientific knowledge, the Galileo episode being the most famous. But it is not only churchmen who offer resistance. Even in Galileo’s day opposition to him was heavily laden by scientists whose pet theories and accepted traditions were crumbling under the weight of new empirical evidence.
One myth that has found its way into modern thought and is entrenched in some circles is the myth of chance.
quote:
Chance as by definition mathematical probability is one thing. Chance as a factor in and of itself is foolish. Chance itself has the power to do nothing.
Sproul writes:
Mortimer Adler notes this new usage: There is still a third sense of ‘chance’ in which it means that which happens totally without causethe absolutely spontaneous or fortuitous.
With the elevation of chance to the level of a real force, the myth serves to under-gird a chaos view of reality. Buttressed by inferences drawn from quantum theory, the idea that reality is irrational rather than coherent gained popularity.
and....(in defense of Theism as a logical alternative to chance)
When we say things happen by chance, the term by can be heard as a dative of means. Suddenly chance is given instrumental power. It is the means by which things come to pass. This means now assumes a certain power to effect change. Something that in reality is nothing now has the ability or power to do something.
The bottom line is, there is no better theory of how the universe came to be that has any bearing in reality than a Creator.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 18 by hooah212002, posted 02-04-2012 10:03 AM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 19 of 365 (651072)
02-04-2012 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by hooah212002
02-04-2012 10:03 AM


Re: Pardon me, myth, your slip is showing
Hooah writes:
It sounds as though you are saying a creator is the only logical "theory" for the beginning of this universe. Is this what you are saying?
I'm not saying that it is the only logical theory, but, rather, that it is no more illogical than any other theory.

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 Message 18 by hooah212002, posted 02-04-2012 10:03 AM hooah212002 has replied

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 Message 20 by hooah212002, posted 02-04-2012 10:29 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 21 of 365 (651076)
02-04-2012 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by hooah212002
02-04-2012 10:29 AM


Re: Pardon me, myth, your slip is showing
It all depends what one considers evidence to be.
quote:
1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
2. Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
3. Law The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.
tr.v. evidenced, evidencing, evidences
1. To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove.
2. To support by testimony; attest.
As you can see, outward signs of emotion, based on real or imagined experience, constitute evidence...of something. Granted, we have nary a spot of evidence as to what that something is or was. Of the oral statements and "testimonies" of other humans, we individually and collectively decide which to accept and which to reject. Given that there are theists as well as atheists, as well as a myriad of other beliefs, the strict definition of evidence is far from conclusive either way concerning God, gods, and other ideas. My point, I suppose, is that theism is a satisfactory alternative belief over observable reality. Myth has its place, and we cannot rule out some truth being found amongst myths.

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 Message 20 by hooah212002, posted 02-04-2012 10:29 AM hooah212002 has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 23 of 365 (651080)
02-04-2012 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by hooah212002
02-04-2012 10:51 AM


Re: Pardon me, myth, your slip is showing
When they ran the DNA test, he was not a match.
In your example, you have evidence against the suspect. In the case of a Creator, (or if you prefer, suspect) we basically have no evidence for or against. Unless I'm missing something......

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 43 of 365 (651134)
02-04-2012 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
02-04-2012 4:49 PM


Re: believing in the absence of evidence
Buzsaw writes:
Science alleges that Energy is eternal, having no beginning or ending according to 1LoT. Only an eternal operative source of energy explains it. It is further supported by observable phenomena relative to the existence of the supernatural as has been shown.
OTH, there is no physical scientific evidence of either the alleged singularity zero event emerging into the alleged expansion of alleged time/space.
The only thing that strikes me as odd concerning rational thought, the singularity hypothesis(which I admit I dont fully understand) and God(which I also dont fully understand) is that we have this fact: A singular group of lifeforms(humans) on a virtual dustspeck of a planet among hundreds of billions of observable stars and galaxies has somehow made a theory as to the origin of all of this observable matter and declares this(or any) theory to be more sound than a belief in a Creator. Why is it so intellectually stunting to profess a belief? Granted we may not need a Creator to explain things for us, but as such a small yet defiant group of lifeforms in this vast universe, it seems to me to be a bit arrogant to profess that the understanding to be passed on to our offspring is that we are the only valid source(and content) of wisdom. Theory is not enough to pass on to the next generation. (of course, this also applies to religion, so I digress)

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(4)
Message 100 of 365 (651358)
02-06-2012 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
02-04-2012 9:22 AM


A Fundamental Rebuttal To The Top Ten
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.~~Guilty. Personally, it makes logical sense to me that there is but one God. Of course I could be wrong, and admittedly cannot comprehend or understand the magnitude and implications of such a Deity...except to believe that this Deity knows me and cares about me. Thus, I will admit that a belief in God gives me comfort.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.~~I am personally not literalistic...though I have no problem with the idea of a God using whatever means It chooses to create.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.~~I don't laugh at anyone (except onifre) and I suppose I could say that belief is a solution for me rather than a problem.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees! I always have believed that humans wrote the Bible and took poetic license in attributing either their own behavior or forces of nature to God. This brings up the question of whether humans can fail or not. I believe that they can and do fail...but woe to him who is used as the instrument of "Gods wrath"....for he too shall be judged.As a final note, I personally don't believe that God slaughters anyone in this life. We do it to ourselves.
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.Thats the standard belief among Christians I associate with, but I can say only that I don't know how such a thing could happen. I do, however, believe that If God exists anything is possible.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.I go with science on this one. The evidence is overwhelming, and the only alternative is that all humans were tricked.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving." I believe that Hell, if it exists, was never meant for humans. Personally, were I God, I would give the defendant the option of ceasing to exist rather than infinite suffering. But that's just me.
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity. Nahhh, im not that gullible!
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. Prayer is meditation and communion. Prayer is not some wish list of a genie. God would already know the needs of everyone anyway...why would He leave our fate up to only ourselves.....(wait a minnnute....)
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.I call myself as human as anyone else. Im no more special than anyone...(well, except as an American! )
Edited by Phat, : oops

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 355 of 365 (653121)
02-18-2012 10:36 AM


Summary
I think that the phrase on our website says it best: Understanding through Discussion.
This has been yet another thread where by reading what is said, a rough understanding of various participants can be made.
Be careful what you write...it will get critiqued.
Edited by Phat, : admin mode by mistake

  
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