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Author | Topic: Top Ten Signs You're a Foolish Atheist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Hi Chuck,
Several items on your list confuse atheism with science. And all are, to understate the case, inaccurate. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Chuck says that his list was a response to the Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian list, I reproduce it here:
Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian 10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian. How does this list measure up accuracy-wise with Chuck's list? Looks pretty accurate to me. Chuck? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Phat writes: My question is...what does a "typical" atheist believe in? (as far as where everything came from) This makes me wonder what Chuck's list would look like were its inaccuracies and errors corrected or removed. Here's my attempt:
--Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Hi Chuck,
I think you're blaming the wrong people. You should be casting your accusations at the church that has taught you untruths about the facts of the real world. You began with such promise. You were invited to join the moderator team. You accepted and were outstanding, for example, posting one of the best reviews of a topic proposal that I've ever seen. Hey, everyone, check out AdminChuck's response to Alfred Maddenstein thread proposal (The wealth of esoteric knowledge behind the nonsensical pronouncements.). I think you'll agree it's outstanding. I particularly liked this part:
AdminChuck writes: The problem here is simple. This site is particularly interested in Scientific evidence. You state you have none for your postion. What Evolutionist often critisize Creationists about is that (we) have no evidence, and simply pick apart the theories that support current positions, i.e. "The theory of evolution" with our hole punchers. But then it all went wrong. I don't know what happened. I miss the old rational and analytical Chuck and wish he would come back to us. Chuck, your top 10 list was childish, idiotic, and said almost nothing that was actually true. It begins by claiming that atheists blame God for the ills of the world. Are you daft? A lot of people put a lot of time into thoughtful responses to your opening post, far, far more time than you did in cut-n-pasting it. I know it's an enormous volume of posts for one person to respond to, but why don't you pick just a couple of the better responses and reply to those. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Here's my attempt at a list that is just as chock full of errors as Chuck's. I tried to make sure each item contained serious flaws or errors of fact or logic.
Top Ten Signs You're a Foolish Christian, Bizarro Version
--Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
crashfrog writes: No, I think the point was that Percy has posted a "top ten list" that as thoroughly misrepresents the Christian perspective as Chuck's list misrepresented that of atheists. In case it wasn't clear, yes, that's what I was trying to do. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Buzsaw writes: I take it from this post that you consider Jon, Chuck and I all as bloomed childish idiots, being we all ascribed to most of Chucks points. About Jon being "ascribed to most of Chuck's points," Jon posted this in Message 70:
Jon in Message 70 writes: Buzsaw writes:
You were one of those two, Buz........ ABE: That two members cheered Chuck's childish and ideotic OP message, implies that two members share Chuck's alleged childishness and ideocy. And the other was just teasing. And in Jon's Message 55 he treated Chuck's list with sarcasm. In light of these messages from Jon, one posted just 8 messages before your own, by what rationale and logic do you reach the conclusion that Jon "ascribed to most of Chuck's points"? About Chuck's list, do you yourself even "ascribe" (I believe you really mean "subscribe") to all of Chuck's points? How about the first one:
Chuck in Message 1 writes: 10. You vigorously deny the existence of God, yet you frequently blame Him for all the "evils" in the world, all the natural disasters, and everything else under the sun that is wrong in modern society. Do you really believe that atheists blame God for the evils in the world? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Hi Buz,
About personal attacks, there was none. Chuck didn't write the opening post, he cut-n-pasted it. My comment was about his cut-n-paste. Specifically, I said:
Percy in Message 54 writes: Chuck, your top 10 list was childish, idiotic, and said almost nothing that was actually true. All this is saying is that Chuck posted a cut-n-paste whose content was childish and idiotic.
Buzsaw writes: No, I don't subscribe to everything in the message. So you presumably understand that it was blockheaded to claim that atheists blame God for anything. Let's go on to the next item:
9. You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when creationists say that people were created in the image and likeness of God, but you have no problem with the evolutionist claim that we all evolved from slime by a cosmic accident. Is this what you were referring to when you mentioned the primordial soup? If so, then you realize this is a false, too. On to the next:
8. You criticize fundamental Christians who believe the Bible, and say that it can't possibly be true because it's just a book written by mere men, yet you never question any of Darwin's writings or Richard Dawkins' books. Obviously false.
7. You can't seem to understand the primary differences between fundamental Muslims and fundamental Christians (hint: strap-on TNT. Plus - Muhammad says, kill innocent people and yourself if you love me. Jesus Christ said, I’ll die for you because I love you). Does this make sense even to you?
6. You say the Bible is full of fairytales and fables, yet you believe all life forms including plants, trees, insects, birds, fish, reptiles and mammals evolved from one species into another - As if evolution isn’t the biggest fairytale of them all. Except for the gratuitous opinion offered at the end, this one is true.
5. You laugh at the Supernatural, even though scientists have calculated the odds of life forming by natural processes to be estimated less than 1 chance in 10 to the 40,ooo power — But you find nothing wrong with believing that billions of years full of random mutations would result in the impossible. Presumably you know, after all your time here, that no such calculation has ever been made by scientists.
4. You accuse fundamental Christians of being intolerant, judgmental and hateful, while you foam at the mouth calling them freaking lunatics, ignorant, weak-minded, stupid fundies, and hateful bigots. I think we can both agree that there's a lot of hateful talk on both sides, so let's call this one true.
3. You ignore scientific concepts like cause and effect, and you don't realize that a closed system can be defined however the observer wants, so you throw out technological phrases to try to ignore the implications of thermodynamics by saying the laws of physics are not set in stone. This one is so confused that it defies analysis. I won't fault you if it sounds correct to you.
2. While all evidence, logic and reasoning point to a Creator and absolute truth, you prefer to hide behind relativism and a theory of evolution which does not, in fact, describe the creation of the universe at all, or why concepts of good and evil or morality exist. After all your time here I assume you understand that evolution of not a theory of the creation of the universe.
1. *Atheism fails to adequately explain the existence of eternal, unchanging truths, for it rejects the existence of an eternal unchanging mind. Atheism cannot offer man any eternal significance whatsoever. Temporary meaning in life is insufficient, for our accomplishments die with the death of the universe -- there is no ultimate purpose in a universe void of God. This one is accurate in an ironic kind of way. Adding this all up we have only 3 statements out of 10 that are correct. The numerous incorrect statements make the list a target for criticism. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Obviously atheists believe in God. Every time Buzsaw posts you can hear them muttering, "Jesus Christ and God almighty, I can't believe he just said that!"
--Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Chuck77 writes: Percy, why is this an issue with you? Aren't you a deist? Yes, but I can't imagine why you think this relevant, so let me address a different issue. Normally when one posts crap, the easiest and most straightforward remedy is to admit error, and then there are cheers all round. Probably the worst approach is to post more crap. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Chuck77 writes: Modulous writes:
Geez, of course I can assure you i know this. Did you think I didn't? I'm simply pointing out that in almost 100% of cases where you find an atheist who is suggesting that God is morally culpable - it is not because the atheist actually believes that God exists. So you understand that the first point from your list is wrong? That it would be like saying, "Christians vigorously deny the existence of Allah, yet they frequently blame Him for the "evils" in the world, like terrorism, the wars in the Middle East, and much else that is wrong."? Let's put the first point from both lists side-by-side:
Your point 10 about atheists is impossible, while the point 10 about Christians is true. And all the other points in the list of "Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian" are also true, while most of the points in your list are not true, and some of them defy logic and interpretation. Yet you defend them anyway. How stupid does something said by a fellow Christian have to be before you'll admit it's wrong? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Hi Buz,
I originally clicked "Acknowledge" on your Message 142 because it contained little that made sense, but if you're going to adopt a reasonable position then maybe I'll reconsider discussing this with you. First let me make certain of your position. This is the first point, point 10, from the opening post:
10. You vigorously deny the existence of God, yet you frequently blame Him for all the "evils" in the world, all the natural disasters, and everything else under the sun that is wrong in modern society. And this is what you posted about it in Message 142:
Buzsaw in Message 142 writes: Percy writes: Buzsaw writes: No, I don't subscribe to everything in the message. So you presumably understand that it was block-headed to claim that atheists blame God for anything. Let's go on to the next item: No. I understand, after going on nine years, debating atheists, et al, that they often do blame God for some things. So just to be very clear, you now acknowledge that the first point, point 10, is incorrect, and that atheists don't hold God, a non-existent being in their eyes, responsible for anything that happens in the real world. Before we continue, do you want to take another read of the thread and check whether your support of any of the remaining points is due to misinterpretation? I'd highly recommend it. You too often find interpretations that don't follow from what was actually written. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Buzsaw writes: To answer your question forthrightly, yes. Item 10 was erroneous. Okay, on to point 9.
9. You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when creationists say that people were created in the image and likeness of God, but you have no problem with the evolutionist claim that we all evolved from slime by a cosmic accident. This point is incorrect because it not a claim of evolution that "we all evolved from slime by a cosmic accident." The position of evolution is that species evolve through a process of random mutation and natural selection. Ultimately this leads to the conclusion that all life is related if you trace far enough back in time. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Hi Buz,
About your feelings of mistreatment, you might be casting blame in the wrong direction. Everyone's limit of frustration is different and some will maintain a polite demeanor longer than others, but thanks and gratitude are not the normal response to what you've been doing here for so many years. Those attempting discussion with you are met with persistent ignorance, intransigent stubbornness, and a blank wall of incomprehension. Naturally people are going to have difficulty maintaining composure. It's a two way street. If you'd like to be treated better then you should treat others better. If you stop subjecting others to nonsense and begin taking the time and making the effort to understand what people are actually saying, then you might find your situation improving. You don't have to agree, but you should give at least the impression of trying to understand. About Point 9, if you think it accurately represents a claim of evolution then I shant try to talk you out of it, but only because no one is ever able to talk you out of anything, but before I move on I would like to place the two point 9's side by side:
As can be plainly seen, your Point 9 is a caricature of evolution, while our Point 9 is an accurate representation of the story in Genesis where it says, "The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground." Moving on to Point 8. I'll put the two Point 8's side by side again:
Your Point 8 about not questioning Darwin or Dawkins is wrong, while our Point 8 about fundamentalist Christians seeing a distinction between polytheism and the trinity is true. Because many here do not share my views about Dawkins, I'll speak just for myself. I received his book The God Delusion for Christmas one year, and after reading one chapter I found it so detestable that I gave it away. I think his selfish gene idea is, to be necessarily brief because I'm already running on, stupid. Yet I loved his book The Blind Watchmaker. Stephen Jay Gould didn't like Dawkins much, either. I think that most people in science view most things with a skeptical eye, accepting that for which there is adequate evidence and rejecting or withholding judgment where there is not. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Hi Trixie,
It might also be worth calling Buzz's attention to the fact that a sizable number of creationists also believe that the origin of life and evolution are two different concepts. These creationists believe that God created life, and that after the flood life went through a period of accelerated evolution to produce the vast diversity of species we see today. --Percy
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